Let me start off by saying that I am in no way affiliated with Quadzilla or Diesel Auto Power. I was simply asked to test the new updates because I have big injectors, I'm familiar with the Quad, and I know the person doing all of the tuning. This person wishes to remain anonymous, so it will stay that way.

On to the good stuff!!!

So what is V2? Basically it's a way to gain more control over the tuning parameters, with an emphasis on CLEAN POWER. I've got big injectors, and I've driven my own truck enough that I can drive it virtually smoke free, but I have to be very careful with the right petal (even when set to stock)

Here are the custom tuning parameters:

Alright, let's start with the power levels: 
0=stock
1=Power Percent (Explained later)
2=Fuel mileage (Same as the old number 1)
3=can-bus only (Same as old number 2)
4=can-bus + wiretap (same as old number 3)
and so on to the maximum level set is reached.

So, as you can see the first 8 parameters (through "TPS CAN Minimum") are the same as they've always been. They will function just like they used to.

The next two have to do with wiretap fueling. The "Boost Pump Scaling" gives the %specified of called for wiretap fueling if the boost is below the "boost pump low limit"
As an example:(Let's say it's set on level 10) In the pictures you can see I have the scaling set to 0% until 15psi. This means I'll get zero wiretap fueling until I hit 15psi of boost. If it was set at 50% I would get 600us of wiretap before 15psi. 
This greatly reduces the amount of smoke output without reducing your peak power.

Next we have Power Percent. This is the "new" level one! Here we have the percentage of stock power called for at all times. This is perfect to use for emissions testing, letting the wife/kids drive etc. This is also another way to reduce smoke if you're wanting to be really clean. 

Next is boost scaling. This is the same as it used to be. Just a smoothing feature.

Next we have PSI% listed 0-17 in increments of 1. This feature allows you to set the amount of stock power based on boost. It allows you to ramp up the power from 0-17psi, effectively reducing smoke and making the truck more driveable.

 

Now for my experience with testing.

 

Level 1: With my truck stock, I can floor it at any time and create quite a cloud of smoke. You'd swear I have a tuner cranked, but it's not. With my truck set to 70%, I can floor it while doing 55mph in 6th and get as big of a puff as a stock 24V. Meanwhile it'll pull about 34psi @ 2000rpm and 40psi by 2500rpm.  It does make the truck a little doggy, but I could adjust the percentage up as I saw fit and still keep smoke to a minimum. This would be perfect if someone were to borrow my truck (never going to happen but you get the point) They could try to hotrod it as much as they want but won't be able to. I do think this would make emissions a breeze to pass, and it could be used as a safety device to keep the truck from being stolen. Essentially you can set it to 1% and the truck would only idle.

 

Now for the PSI%: With the power level turned up around 1500rpm I can stab the throttle (0psi of boost) and get nothing more than a slight haze until the boost picks up and the quad starts fueling hard. Spool is still excellent under these conditions, I just need to work on my top-end fuel command to reduce the smoke up there. This has made the biggest difference in CLEAN power. The quad is essentially rolling into the throttle for you as the boost comes up so you don't cloud the highway when you get on it. 

Now the "Boost pump scaling" and "boost pump low limit": The wiretap fueling is essentially it's "own" programmer. It doesn't follow the rules of the can-bus fueling. This was taking effect in my description above because it doesn't wiretap fuel for me until 15psi of boost. Thus why it's only a haze until 15psi.

 

Now, what I'm not quite happy with yet. Off idle, if I stab the throttle on level 1 I get a puff of smoke. I am told this is because of where the quad takes over and starts controlling things. It's being worked on and should be fixed soon. Other than that I'm very happy! I do have only 20 miles or so of testing, but this does look very promising. I'll be putting 50 miles on in the morning and 50 miles in the afternoon, so I'll have more info then.

Any questions post em up and I'll do my best to answer them. The future of clean power for 24V's looks promising  

Edited February 13, 20178 yr by Me78569
Changed the title for SEO reasons

19 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

It is defiantly easier to understand, but not enough variables based on my CR tuning experiences. 

 

May I ask what other variables you need? 

 

There is also an "if then" statement between the 2 examples above. 

 

IF engine load is LESS than cruise timing load THEN...

 

Quote

Conditions:

1500 rpm

load = %15 

 

Total timing is 17* + ((%100-15%) load x 2*)  = 18.7*

 

 

Math here is additional timing...

 

IF engine load is GREATER than cruise timing load THEN...

 

Quote

Conditions:

1500 rpm

load = %40

 

total timing is 17* - ((%100-%40) x 3*) = 15.2*

 

 

Have to watch the math here is reduction of timing...

Edited September 13, 20177 yr by Mopar1973Man

I don't like the math and if/then stuff. It doesn't seem as adjustable. 

 

I'd much rather build a 3D timing map, but that's where my experience is. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 20177 yr by AH64ID

If then else, the basis to almost every computer program.

 

that map looks funky. why the deep valley? looks interesting once on understands what they are adjusting.

10 minutes ago, Killer223 said:

If then else, the basis to almost every computer program.

 

Yes it is, and it's still aplied in the ECM, especially with CR's, but it looks much more difficult to fine tune. It doesn't appear you can adjust just 60-80% load and leave the rest alone, maybe i'm wrong thou. 

 

10 minutes ago, Killer223 said:

that map looks funky. why the deep valley? looks interesting once on understands what they are adjusting.

 

Same thing we've been talking about in here with the timing dip after the cruise portion of the map. It's not as deep as it looks thou. At 1800 rpms my peak cruise timing is 6.4° and my lowest timing is 1.0° and then it rises back up to 6.1° by 100% load. 

 

Here is the same view on a stock early 04 map. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 20177 yr by AH64ID

I understand the desire for 3d maps vs "virutal maps".  Sadly the 3rd maps were not a possibity with the technology we had at that point.  

 

3d maps give more control, but there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to what the average 2nd gen guy will do lol.  

 

as for maps   they aren't as pretty or easy to understand, but it works.

 

 

 

However easy to use with timing results that offer more tunablity than the market had was the goal.

are all adjustments based on engine load?

how is load calculated?

 

1 minute ago, AH64ID said:

 

Yes it is, and it's still aplied in the ECM, especially with CR's, but it looks much more difficult to fine tune. It doesn't appear you can adjust just 60-80% load and leave the rest alone, maybe i'm wrong thou. 

You're right you cannot adjust only a section of the map directly.   that's outside of the design spec for the tuner.

Just now, Killer223 said:

are all adjustments based on engine load?

how is load calculated?

 

 

That's the mystery, and it sounds like not all trucks report this number directly. @Me78569 you based load pretty much with 0-4095 canbus fuel, correct?

maybe my questions are better suited for a new thread, so i can teach myself with everyone's help, how to write tunes.

 

Load on the Quadzilla is 0-4095 fueling. being 0-%100.  

 

Actual engine load as SAE defines is not reliable on a vp44 gen cummins.  Some trucks report load that works, others like mine do not.  

 

My Truck

 

Tylers Truck

2 minutes ago, Killer223 said:

maybe my questions are better suited for a new thread, so i can teach myself with everyone's help, how to write tunes.

 

Ya if you want to learn tuning stuff for a CR truck this is not the thread.  the vp44 world is a strange and sad place.

interesting, smarty says it works from 98.5-current trucks, something i'll delve into later.

thanks.

 

Using my 05's tune I'll try to go into a little more depth about the timing cliff. 

 

Lets look at 2000 rpms. 30mm3/21% is close to normal cruise empty at 70 mph for me. 

 

At 2000 rpms and 30mm3 I run 7.0° of main timing, that puts all of the the fuel injected 1.4° BTDC. 100% of the fuel is injected BTDC. 

 

At 2000 rpms and 65mm3 (46% load) my timing is at it's lowest point of 1.5°. All of the fuel is injected by 9.2° ATDC, and 14% of the fuel is injected BTDC. 

 

At 2000 rpms and 145mm3 (100% load) my timing is 8.3°. All of the fuel is injected by 11.7° ATDC. 41% of the fuel is injected BTDC. 

 

You can see that there is 6.8° of timing advance from 46-100% load, but the injection events end only 2.5° apart. This keeps peak cylinder pressures at similar time for different quantities of fuel and timing. The boost/fuel numbers at 46% load will also have a longer ignition delay which pushes the peak pressure back. 

 

So if I were to run 7° of timing at 46% load the fuel would be injected by 3.7° ATDC and 65% of it would be injected BTDC which can lead to negative torque, and poor exhaust flow/spool. 

 

So at 26% we have low fuel/boost and a long ignition delay so we advance the timing to get peak cylinder pressure where we want it (12-15° ATDC optimally).

 

At 46% load we have more fuel/boost so the ignition delay is shorter, but the injector isn't open very long so we need less timing to get that peak cylinder pressure where we want it. (Remember CR's use a pilot so the timing is too low for a CR). 

 

At 100% load we have plenty of fuel/boost to give us a short ignition dealy. We need to advance the timing here so that we get the fuel injected and ignited to create peak cylinder pressure where we want it. Too low of timing will still result in good ignition but we miss the 12-15° ATDC window and lose power with higher EGT's... but lower emissions  (think 04.5-07 CR's).

 

So it's all a balancing act of rpms, injection duration, ignition delay, peak pressure, and efficiency. 

 

Hopefully that clears up the mud just a little.... 

 

I'm trying to only discuss the stuff as we can correlate CR to VP. 

12 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Load on the Quadzilla is 0-4095 fueling. being 0-%100.  

 

Actual engine load as SAE defines is not reliable on a vp44 gen cummins.  Some trucks report load that works, others like mine do not.  

 

 

It almost looks like your truck is trying to defuel but the Quad is overruling the ECM. 

Edited September 13, 20177 yr by AH64ID

11 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

It almost looks like your truck is trying to defuel but the Quad is overruling the ECM. 

Nope that was lvl 0 so the quad was only reading the data stream it was not sending data. 

 

look at the canbus fuel lines, they stay stable, but as soon as they are stable the SAE PID for load drops to 0.  It is simply that the ecm is not reporting SAE load as spec'd.  I see this over and over in the canbus stream.  

 

the outputs from the ECM are not reliable in a sense that you are used to.  My best guess is since the vp trucks were a stepping stone for dodge / cummins / bosch to get the the CR trucks, we got tuning that was taken from already in place systems.   Some things work others don't.  

 

 

I will never argue that UDC pro is more tuneable when it comes to making the truck do EXACTLY what you want at any given point in the maps.   However The Quadzilla gives vp44 guys the ablity to dictate a multi axis, linear on each axis, timing curve.  It gives us wiretap and it does so for a good bit cheap and with much less of a learning code.  

 

Simply put it is a simpler tuner that offers some of the perks of full custom tuning.  different strokes haha.

 

20 minutes ago, Killer223 said:

interesting, smarty says it works from 98.5-current trucks, something i'll delve into later.

thanks.

 

It is but vp trucks have a different set of limits to them.  fueling via electronics can only be increased ~%12 without wiretap.  We have mechanical injectors so we are limited on the injector size we can go to without smoke being an issue due to the hole size.  We cannot alter injection pressure etc.   

 

UDC pro is not a great fit for midly modded vp44 trucks.  it is too much money and too complex for the return.  Now in the CR world it is worth every penny.

Edited September 13, 20177 yr by Me78569

Yes there was lots of learning going on in the early VP days. Trying to get the ECM to talk to a smart injection pump was a lot of fun from what I hear. 

 

The quad looks like a great platform for sure!!

 

I'd like to mess more with UDC Pro on a VP truck, I just don't have access to one. It look like the VP is capable of nearly 2x the OEM fuel but it's hard to say what it will allow for. 

3 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

I'd like to mess more with UDC Pro on a VP truck, I just don't have access to one. It look like the VP is capable of nearly 2x the OEM fuel but it's hard to say what it will allow for. 

Nope,  %12 more. 

 

on a %100 stock truck the ecm will ask for a fueling command of ~3600 ( I think 3634 is the biggest I have seen) on the data stream to the vp44.  The data stream is a 12^2 message so the biggest possible fueling command you can have is 4095.  

 

here's stock

 

Max fuel possible via Canbus tune ( ECM output) from the Smarty S03 tuner

 

 

This is why we have wiretap in the 2nd gen world.  The Communication protocol that was build for the ECM to VP44 commands does not support a fueling command greater than the slot for 12^2 or 4095 in size.  The ecm may support bigger... but it can't  send any bigger.

 

 

 

 

The vp44 world is a sad sad place.

 

 

1 minute ago, Me78569 said:

Nope,  %12 more. 

 

 

This is why we have wiretap in the 2nd gen world.  The Communication protocol that was build for the ECM to VP44 commands does not support a fueling command greater than the slot for 12^2 or 4095 in size.  The ecm may support bigger... but it can't  send any bigger.

 

 

 

 

The vp44 world is a sad sad place.

 

 

 

Well hell.....

 

The OEM duration table goes up to 240 mm3 but we only ask for 115-120mm3... I was hoping we could use all of that 240. 

 

 

@AH64ID  

So question for how you handle making changes.  what process do you go through to make an adjustment to a tune?   I am not talking about in the software itself, but what thought process do you go through?   How do you recognize an issue or an area in the map that needs an adjustment?  How do you know if you have fixed what you set out to fix.  How many hours do you drive per change, on average, before moving on to another part of the map?

 

@mopar1973man has good questions in regards to how we should know if a .5* timing adjustment helps or hurts at a given point.  

A lot of it is smoke driven. Often a greyish haze is seen around optimal timing/fuel when fueling heavily. This gives me an idea that I am nearing max timing and will adjust from there, usually a small retard in timing cleans it up nicely. Sounds is another big one, thou I am not sure how that applies to your noisy *** VP truck :-)

 

If it's not smoke or noise driven then it's usually trying to improve mileage or decrease WOT EGT's. 

 

I'll be honest, a lot of my tuning is done remote so I am looking at the data I talked about above. BTDC:ATDC, degree at which the injector closes, etc. 

 

When people I am tuning for ask for revisions I like to get load, rpms, boost/EGTs, rail pressure, etc.. Usually they are looking for more power or lower smoke. One thing I have found is that every truck smokes different, but most trucks are usually happy within a degree or so of each other, relatively speaking of course. 

 

For my personal tunes I sometimes go many many months without making any tweaks, especially major ones. I think I have only done a couple of tweaks in the last year or more, and most of them deal with the adjustment tables and not the main tables. Most of this year has been spent getting the pilot where I want it. Quiet combustion was my main goal at low rpms/loads. With UDC Pro and a ComMod I am able to adjust some tables on the fly (timing being the one I normally do). I've had 3 full tune flashes since March and before March I didn't do anything after August. For pilot tuning I have to do a full flash, not just a RT (real time temporary flash). Thou I don't recall the last time I tweaked anything in the empty zone of the tune, just towing. 

 

For the first time in well over a year I redid my timing tables with a big change. This last month I tried 2 different timing profiles in the 40-60% load range from 1600-2000 rpms. The tune pulled well, ran clean, and was fairly efficient, but I was hoping to pull a little better mileage while towing heavy. I made changes from 0.2°-1.5° in this area. What I noticed was a small reduction in EGT's, about 25-50° tops, no change in boost, but about a 10-15% increase in economy (high 9's to low 11's in similar loads/driving). I then went a little further and EGT's went up and boost down so I went back. I was happy enough I made an ECM file and flashed the tune. So now I'll do some additional towing and see. I've got some trips coming up that are repeats of last year with the old tune so I'll see what happens. 

 

Since I started custom tuning my truck in 2012 I bet I have 100 ECM flashes. A lot of them deal with becoming a better tuner, some deal with experimenting, some deal with hardware changes, and some deal with tuning software changes and table availability. It took 3 flashes to get my fuel gauge reading how I wanted it to, and it took one flash just to enable my 2nd WIF sensor. So not all of them are drive ability tweaks. I'm also picky and experimental. I want to know how small changes make effects so people I tune for get the best product. 

 

Sometimes I just want to see if I can do it better even if it's working better than expected, but I'm sure none of you in here have that issue 

 

 

In terms of ±0.5° being too much, I try to tune on the safer side of that. To me trying to get that final ±0.5° should be left for dyno tuning a race tune. Street/Towing tunes shouldn't be at that level of timing, IMHO. 

 

That being said playing with ±0.5° in the cruise profile isn't the same. You guys are seeing what happens with too much timing and the sluggish feel.  You may not feel that at WOT at 2800 rpms, but it's not a good thing. 

 

So, I guess spool, EGT's, boost, noise, exhaust color, smoke, etc should all be looked at in regard to non-cruise timing. It will take time if you're trying to get full optimization, but even that will change with elevation and seasons. 

Edited September 13, 20177 yr by AH64ID

11 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

A lot of it is smoke driven. Often a greyish haze is seen around optimal timing/fuel when fueling heavily. This gives me an idea that I am nearing max timing and will adjust from there, usually a small retard in timing cleans it up nicely.

that is very intesting.  I noticed this when I upped my max timing from 26* to 29*   I now have a slight grey haze, but a much better pulling truck in the 2800+ rpm

 

 

So what I am getting is 

 

1. Smoke telling you whats happening

2. noise

3. datalogging and resulting fuel logs

 

I find it a VERY difficult and time consuming to nail down a change I would call " progress"

 

 

as for economy, my truck seems to be easy to please.  If I stick timing between 19-20* at 65 mph I get no less than 24 mpg.  as soon as I go more than 1-2* away from that mpg drops like a stone.

Edited September 13, 20177 yr by Me78569