Alright this is gonna get intense lol. Here we have a bunch of kids dead.......alright so I have been researching this along with all of the past massacres like this. They all play out the same, kill people then kill self. As I researched I noticed one huge flaw. You can get these damn guns as easy as a loaf of bread.. And in todays instance, just walk over and grab it and kill your mom. HOW is it that easy? I can go to walmart, buy everything I need, stuff it in my coat, go to my chemistry class of 500 people where there are no metal detectors, and clean a lot more than 20 off in no time. I mean these guys are getting semi autos with banana clips..well the columbine guys were that I read about. So then we have the one solution of everyone having guns. Well that worked in one town, but the cost would be huge for the whole USA. Every household would need one.. Then they need bullets and whatnot. But lets say Mike is there with his pistol on his side. Obviously this isn't concealed.. If I come in with my trenchcoat, how hard is it for me to turn around, pull out my gun, turn back around and take him out instantly. I mean it's not hard to look around in an empty hallway to see potential threats. Then open the door to chemistry, everyone facing forward, sitting ducks... It's just wayyyyyyyyy too easy! Todays thing was proof! You guys want more guns but I'd realllly like to hear your thoughts on how more guns will stop this crap. There are gun safes.. Even still, how hard is it for a 20 year old to overpower their mom...make her tell them the gun safe code. Plus, most of these guys are not even suspected of anything like that, so they probably already know the code. There are no metal detectors anywhere really... So yeah, anywhere is a target. It's so simple. Same with taking someones credit card, you don't have to sign anything at the gas pump, swipe and go, mine doesnt even have a pin at the pump. I was talking to a guy in the netherlands about this and he said they cannot get guns there. Says it is so hard to get a license to have one that most people don't bother. Since there are basically no guns at all there, there is only petty crap. Knife stabbings or something. To me, either everyone needs a gun, or nobody can have a gun. This mix of gun owners vs. innocents is not working. The gun owners are not responsible at all. But nor is whoever sells them. The columbine guys got that stuff easilllly. Now I know how this is gonna go, and I'm here to say I don't go either way. If nobody but cops had guns, there would still be a psycho cop abusing his power so someone would need a gun to balance the equation. So tell me, what exactly do you guys think the solution for this crap is? Other than keeping people happy...there will always be ONE psycho who pulls something like this.

Eh. You guys are really testy today. I don't see any easy solution but going after each other isn't one of them. I can go either way on this issue and I'm trying to keep the peace but it is turning around on me. We all have different opinions and you guys need to respect that. If there was any one opinion that was correct, there would be a book out entitled "Facts to abide by". But there isn't. We all have grown up differently and see things in a different light so it is disrespectful to disregard another persons input when it may or may not actually work. Because of this, I will close this thread before it goes any further. It was a long running thread with a lot of good input but somehow it ran off track this morning. I started this thread and I thank all of you for your input and hope you guys will respect my decision for closing this. We are here to help each other or respectfully debate each others input, not the opposite. Questions/comments...PM me.

Alright so had a comment to keep it going saying it isn't really getting bad yet. Thing is the ball has already started to roll and I don't want it to go any further to the point that it is obvious why it needs to be closed. If you guys are set on a subject from this thread that you want to go into more detail about, start a new thread on it. Keep from rolling the ball and it's fine with me

Back by popular demand.. Keep it respectful guys! More proof/videos less personal involvement towards each other. I don't want this thread interfering with the true nature of the forum (diesel help).. I hope you guys understand.

For my part it's all good - hard topic with obvious very polar ideals. Kinda interested to sit back and hear other discussions - its even split within our own family:) thx for keeping on track Ryan

I've watched a lot of videos lately, talked with a couple facebookers as well, and nothing points to the gun. One even more interesting thing I found was one of my facebookers has lived in other countries and claims that the media doesn't publicize the events that happen over there like they do here. So I was talking about how the netherlands had no crime because they had no guns...well that mighta been wrong. They might have just as many crimes as we do over here. I think the media here and everywhere else are 2 different things. As you can see I swing back and forth on the issue as I learn more facts and I want to keep learning. This thread was full of many facts so me and some other people want to see it keep going. I heard 2 firefighters got shot in NYC trying to save a guy or something. Stuff needs to change. You guys are the beginning of this change. Somehow someway we can be heard. Which is another topic of discussion. Obviously my note to the senator got thrown in the trash, how else is there? Merry Christmas guys! Family first!! This topic later

I meant nothin in my response to anyones reply's. Just trying to simply clear the smoke.

I cannot IMO seem to really be able to contribute much more to this thread. It will end up being along the lines of beating a dead horse.

But, I will sit back and read others responses and only reply if deemed necessary.

A polarizing has definitely taken place and people cannot seem to agree on a matter. All we need is to look at history. People need to stop experimenting for solutions...

I will keep my guns, protect and defend when I have to use them when I have to and let the world do its thing...

Whats wrong with this world people ask? Simple...

We live in the times of the end of this age:

2Timothy 3:

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. ² People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, ³ without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, ⁴ treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— ⁵ having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

being that we are all adults in this "family" i feel comfy to add my view on this whole thing.ill start with this:the pieces of the puzzle pertaining to all the mass murders happening are too similar and convenient to ignore. we have young men who have never been in combat, no training, no motive that are armed very well not only with guns but also gear. They have a well planned out tact of carrying out their task at hand and are very successful at it. I know you can get a lot from movies and such, but without training, practice or experience, these tasks can fail without the aforementioned. So how is it that these 20 something young men are carrying out devastating acts of violence out of the blue at just the right time, place and setting. gun free zones aside (we know the story on them) these guys are well funded, trained and armed. The scenes where these killing take place are not random to me, they seem to be picked to get the most attention and pain that can be done.moving on to the bigger picture. foil hats required...history has proven around the world that there is a entity behind the scenes of governments very well hidden, almost invisible to comprehend yet it is the puppeteer pulling the strings to achieve a final goal. The aurora movie shooting, got some headlines but it fizzled (not to make light of it), then you have the oregon shooting, again it fizzled. Now you have 26 dead in an elementary school, most children and holy shipwreck the world turns upside down. They finally got the attention they have been trying for to get guns into the main picture as being the evil doer of these atrocities and attempt to get them removed by none other than the people themselves.Government wont take our guns directly, they aren’t stupid. Instead orchestrate atrocities until you put enough fear into the hearts and minds of the people and they will choose to remove guns on their own. The government sits back and smiles, all the while we remove our own freedoms from ourselves.to understand this theory, understand why guns are the focus.the gun in its fundamental state is a tool proven throughout history to defend and fight against those that mean to do you harm to you, your family, property or freedoms. Without the means to defend yourself from those that want to take from you, be it life, liberty, property or freedom, you are vulnerable to the biddings of those with the power to enforce what they lay on you to follow.if a man has it in his heart to commit mass murder, he will find the means to do so regardless of what is illegal, hard to get, banned, etc etc... He will find a way to complete his task at hand and the outcome will be the same in the end.high explosives= massive deathderail a train full of chlorine or hazardous chemicals = massive deathpoison a drinking system = massive deathunleash biological agent = massive deathgas an entire building = massive deathuse a gun and kill as many as you can in 10 minutes... = children dead.the gun is something that can wield very destructive power with just one person in a convenient effective manner. it doesnt make sense for each person to drive a uhaul full of fertilizer to a war, or defend against a home invader. A gun is a small lightweight effective tool that executes its task with precision and without prejudice.without these tools we are vulnerable to the atrocities our governments will unleash on us if we dont properly use them and manage them in the right hands of law abiding citizens.without them we are lostwithout them our freedom is gone, forever.

Ive reread this thread thinking I mis spoke or offended someone, as my comment was the last posted before it was locked out. I cant see where I stepped out of line, I certainly wasnt attacking anybody personally. If anybody feels differently, that wasnt my intentions. Having a discussion as deep as this, especially when one is playing both sides of the field, is bound to produce some emotions. I think thats all that weve seen here, not disrepect but emotions and I think I can speak for everybody else on that. Just the same, maybe its best to just stick to technical topics in the future, less chance of bieng "misunderstood".Merry Christmas and god bless,JR

Ive reread this thread thinking I mis spoke or offended someone, as my comment was the last posted before it was locked out. I cant see where I stepped out of line, I certainly wasnt attacking anybody personally. If anybody feels differently, that wasnt my intentions. Having a discussion as deep as this, especially when one is playing both sides of the field, is bound to produce some emotions. I think thats all that weve seen here, not disrepect but emotions and I think I can speak for everybody else on that. Just the same, maybe its best to just stick to technical topics in the future, less chance of bieng "misunderstood". Merry Christmas and god bless, JR

Just an article. http://news.yahoo.com/could-us-learn-australias-gun-control-laws-174307680.html Thought it was relevevant around what I was saying. I know there are probably many more from othre countries or whever that show otehr wise - just curious to get a few good reads linked in here also

Just an article. http://news.yahoo.com/could-us-learn-australias-gun-control-laws-174307680.html Thought it was relevevant around what I was saying. I know there are probably many more from othre countries or whever that show otehr wise - just curious to get a few good reads linked in here also

Seems that worked pretty good. But I wonder if other things contributed to it. Of course I have no clue but an antigun reporter could use that against guns or something. My uncle lives in kansas city and he went to gun shop and said there are hoards of people buying guns. I know all of these people were wanting it for self defence and thats fine. My only concern is most of these people might not really be aware of a guns power. It's not just some knife you can throw under the couch cushion and get it when someone tries to break in, its something that basically anyone can use. A 2 year old can pull the trigger with ease. So my only thing on gun control is something needs to happen so they aren't just sitting there. Kids might not even know what they are if they are 2 or something, pull the trigger and bam. There are a lot of people out there who grow fond of the gun and just leave it laying around like a box of tissues and then someone comes over and they forget about it and they grab it. So we just need to have a little more common sense in that regards. My dad has his locked up all the time, I don't know the code, I don't know where the key is. If you don't have the gun on your side the entire time then I doubt you'll have time to get it even if its under the couch when the robber breaks in and instantly shoots you if thats his intent. But I want to go after the issue of the mind corruption that brings them to the level of lunacy. I don't think obama's going to get anywhere banning assault weapons and high round clips when there are millllions in america.

Seems that worked pretty good. But I wonder if other things contributed to it. Of course I have no clue but an antigun reporter could use that against guns or something.

My uncle lives in kansas city and he went to gun shop and said there are hoards of people buying guns. I know all of these people were wanting it for self defence and thats fine. My only concern is most of these people might not really be aware of a guns power. It's not just some knife you can throw under the couch cushion and get it when someone tries to break in, its something that basically anyone can use. A 2 year old can pull the trigger with ease. So my only thing on gun control is something needs to happen so they aren't just sitting there. Kids might not even know what they are if they are 2 or something, pull the trigger and bam. There are a lot of people out there who grow fond of the gun and just leave it laying around like a box of tissues and then someone comes over and they forget about it and they grab it. So we just need to have a little more common sense in that regards. My dad has his locked up all the time, I don't know the code, I don't know where the key is. If you don't have the gun on your side the entire time then I doubt you'll have time to get it even if its under the couch when the robber breaks in and instantly shoots you if thats his intent.

But I want to go after the issue of the mind corruption that brings them to the level of lunacy. I don't think obama's going to get anywhere banning assault weapons and high round clips when there are millllions in america.

Not helping the matter...

Typically when I'm home the pistol is either in my bedroom or just on the desk. Being there is no children and rarely do I get any guest here. I'm not terribly worried. But those of you with families with children I highly suggest for the safety of your family and children that there is a strict gun rules in your household. Many households out here start children in there early teens about guns and rifles so the kids know the dangers of them.

As for the access of personal weapons. Now that is a thin line for all different types of answers. Personal view is what good is a weapon locked up in a safe? You not going to tell you attacker, "Hey wait a second while I unlock the gun cabinet." Kind defeats the purpose of self defense weapon. What good is a self defense weapon if left at home or in your vehicle?

But back to the shooting... The shooting at least in my eyes in like Ryan said setup and controlled for media stunt to get parent to vote for stricter gun laws. Kind of like Eric Holder getting caught selling guns to Mexico to stir up problems for the US border.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Holder

So way I see it the Gov't create the chaos and then step in with we've got the fix for this chaos.

(Once again these are my personal views)

PS: Merry Christmas all...

---

UPDATE

Like MoparMom and I have been talking also. Why is it that all mass shootings like in CT. are done by illegal gun carriers? So far from what MoparMom has found there is never been a single shooting where a person had a concealed weapons permit. So going after the legal gun owners in not the right thing to do here. Like myself I had a background check done, taken course here in Idaho for concealed weapons, etc. I've done everything the state requires to be a legal gun owner.

Looks like Idaho is planning on some changes......moparmom http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/12/20/2387852/pro-liberty-survivalist-community.html#storylink=omni_popular#wgt=pop

Speaking of 'general aroma'....I've been in HuffingtonPost for the last week or so. Yikes! Insults, Name calling, word bending, conjecture. I was in only 2 or 3 threads too... (guns and politics mainly)... Forget the environment, 'green' issues, *** issues... ugh, they have a hot button for anyone!I was promptly thrown into the 'bagger' group. (not sure exactly what that means...) Almost wonder if these ' interwebs' ( which I, as a 'redneck' uses,) is to blame for the extreme polarizations in any issue these days! Seems like EVERYONE wants to be the 'one' to put the final nail in a coffin... no matter what it takes.Since I'm not an 'intellectual', my posts are just considered 'knee jerk' reactions... I was told to shut up and let the 'experts' decide on what is best for me...

Another good article from over at IdahoTurboDiesels.com http://1389blog.com/2012/12/23/larry-correia-refutes-the-gun-controllers-once-and-for-all/

Jon, With all due respect, and you are a cool dude, despite our differences in politics. However... I feel compelled to write this up. (sorry for the drive by again, but I will try to check in on this)Without discussing the details of violence in the UK and Australia, which do not equate to the U.S. and where other forms of violence as practiced there should be considered before passing judgement on the success of what their governments put in place... I love the USA, I love our Freedoms, and many many people here have made it many years without even having to get into a physical altercation with another. And yes, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. I love the fact that we can defend our freedoms and have in the past domestically through elections, court decisions, and by the Grace of God. And I love that we've protected our freedom on a global scale, through the efforts of our military, our missionaries, and our way of life. We are a beacon of freedom and justice. That all said. The very concept of being defenseless and unable to bring force to defend myself, my family, and my country is disgusting. Recent examples of a national (hurricane sandy, kitrina, etc) or local calamity (break in, assault, etc) where there is no real rule of law, or respect of it are many. As a matter of fact, I find unprotected and unguarded "gun free" zones to be dangerous, as they are prime targets for ________ like that kid in CT. And if you believe that the lack of guns in circulation will keep us safe, they won't. Much like TSA, they will only make you feel safe... And chances are, just like now, you will never have a gun brought to bear on you in anger. Consider this, men will kill, and wholesale, armed with guns or not. I cite the 1927 school bombing, and the OKC bombings. Gun control is feel good politics, and does nothing to combat the near term or mid term violence, and usually creates a large spike in gun violence. Long term... Perhaps, but at what cost?ps. if this was discussed earlier, sorry I missed it.

That's cool man - I also think I said a couple times that I'm coming at it from a different perspective having grown up in 2 other countries and our while way if life is different around guns - really it was just another perspective on something I don't fully understand. So it's interesting at least to hear all your guys thoughts . I just wonder what the fix is ... Let's say we keep all the guns for decency and liberty and tyranny ... Cool ..,. Now what ? I just don't see many other solutions here that are better ..... I've grown up with hunting Roos and foxes in aus and hunting here with bow and gun .... So been around guns ... But I've seen plenty of crazy kids who talk about theirs and shooting crap up and what not .... Anyway - so what do we do apart from better health systems and screening that no-one will fund ?

My 96 year old neighbor came to my place yesterday for breakfast and we got talking about a couple of murders that happened locally and lack of evidence for one of them and a conviction for another. This is a broad statement not just for the shootings in the world because in alot of cases the people doing them kill themselves, but for the way the world is in general. He's seen alot of changes in the world in his 96 years, sad changes and he said its sickening to see what takes place nowdays. His thought I have to say i agree on in alot of situations and it would be a wake up call to these hardened criminals. Prisons are overflowing, crooks don't care because the punishment is a joke. Serious crimes like these shootings that the bad guys survive, have hangings , same as murderers. Less expense and the problem people are gone, and maybe the next guy that's having the brainwave will think a bit before he does it. Sounds harsh...but not as harsh as the poor people getting killed for no reason. They don't deserve to die while the person that took their live lives. JMO

Another good article from over at IdahoTurboDiesels.com http://1389blog.com/2012/12/23/larry-correia-refutes-the-gun-controllers-once-and-for-all/

Did enjoy reading this. Good points.

is anyone noticing a divide between states laws and the fed laws? states i think are laxing the gun laws, empowering the people while the govt is tightening the noose. just an observation

Originally introduced and passed in Montana, the FFA declares that any firearms made and retained in-state are beyond the authority of Congress under its constitutional power to regulate commerce among the states. Following initial Montana enactment, clones of the Firearms Freedom Act have subsequently been enacted in Tennessee, Utah, Wyoming and South Dakota, and other clones have been introduced in the legislatures of twenty-some other states. The FFA is primarily a Tenth Amendment challenge to the powers of Congress under the “commerce clause,” with firearms as the object – it is a state’s rights exercise. Basically, what this says, is ANY gun that is manufactured, transported, sold, and retained within State borders, then Fed laws are null. http://firearmsfreedomact.com/ This has a map of the states which have adopted FFA. ('course, Nebraska HAS to be like Cali!) idiots...