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Vais01

Fuel lubricity

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I agree, every band aid they require costs more money to everyone. Higher truck cost, lower mileages, more engine wear, all guarantees manufacturers, refiners and parts counters greater profits to collect tax on profits.

Current OCI on the Cummins is double what ours is....I'd say Cummins disagrees with your statement. Not trying to pick an argument here guys but without the EPA where would we be? (Take a CLOSE look at China with their recent industrial boom and lack of regulations and what has been going on over there to get an idea)

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The SCR equipped trucks are every bit of 1500-2000 lbs heavier than the 2nd gens, put out twice the torque, provide very similar mpg running empty and will return better towing mpg than a 2nd gen...and does so at emissions levels that rival todays gasoline engine. If that's not progress, Im not sure what is!

Sure there are people in power in the EPA that have questionable ethics and motives but the same could be said for every entity whether it be the government or private sector. But the truth is the EPA has cleaned our country up immensely over the last 50 years. I've never lived in a big city but those that have and can remember all the smog warnings and acid rains of the 70s and 80s can attest to that. School systems had to watch the smog forecast to decide whether or not to let kids out for recess everyday! Imagine that!! Remember when the Cuyahoga River burned? (It burned countless times during the 50's-60's). Ive fished in the Cuyahoga several times over the years, thanks to the 10 year dredging project in the 90's.

Alot has changed since those days, and personally I think it's for the better!! But that's just me.

Let's keep political and environmental out of this particular topic. Fuel lubricity does help with emissions factors but this not the root of this subject.

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Current OCI on the Cummins is double what ours is....I'd say Cummins disagrees with your statement. Not trying to pick an argument here guys but without the EPA where would we be? (Take a CLOSE look at China with their recent industrial boom and lack of regulations and what has been going on over there to get an idea)

Regulation from federally funded private agencies did not cause the OCI levels to become extended the engine manufacturers associations did using oil analysis.

Now back to fuel lubricity.

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Has anyone with a second gen VP44 injected trucks ran Biodiesel blends higher than 10% with any issues?

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Regulation from federally funded private agencies did not cause the OCI levels to become extended the engine manufacturers associations did using oil analysis.

Now back to fuel lubricity.

Correct, due to the cleaniness of the combustion of the engine which is contrary to the statement about engine wear. SCR trucks are cleaner and more efficient inside and out than our VP trucks could ever be.

To the OP, nothing politically motivated about any of my comments. The EPA has driven the fuel standards we use today so its all relevant. You just brought up another question regarding a govt mandated policy so don't be disappointed when another "politically" related discussion surfaces.

Edited by diesel4life

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You know you'll hear loads of different things on any forum. I once read about a VP44 rebuilder that while working hands on in the shop discovered that biodiesel was one major factor as to why VP's give up mechanically.

Wouldn't it be better expressed by not blaming biodiesel fuel and instead blame a lack of good filtration?

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Material compatibility (particularly rubber hoses), oil dilution,corrosion, filter plugging, decreased fuel mileage are all potential drawbacks associated with running higher blends of bio. Not to mention the higher the concentration the more prone the fuel is to mishandling at the terminal and fuel stations. I think I mentioned before I run B5 from a trusted station but am very hesitant to run anything more than that especially from an unknown source.

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Has anyone with a second gen VP44 injected trucks ran Biodiesel blends higher than 10% with any issues?

I have run some B-5 but mostly B-15 and 20 for the past 8k miles with no ill effects. Matter of fact some fuel economy increase. I did add an Edge comp about the same time so not sure what effect this has had on the mileage. I ran a tank of this while back and got one of the best tanks mileage wise ever. post-338-0-59492000-1440430467_thumb.jpg I still ran 16oz's of 2 stroke with the B5 and the B15. The B20 and this stuff run quieter than straight #2 and 2 stroke.I have only been running the bio this spring and summer, not sure about winter. So far no ill effects. I hope I am not screwing anything up because I am seeing more and more Bio almost everywhere i have been in the past 8 months. It is getting more prevalent.  

 

 

 

I guess I should add this. Many years ago when ethanol was first being pushed I thought that anything to get us of the arab teat had to be good. Since it has become so prevalent and the true cost is apparent I am against it. Every time you go to the grocery store you pay for it. I think the negatives outway the positives. That being said, I hope this is not as true for the Bio diesel. I know some of it comes from waste products, soy beans and such. I am not sure how these items effect any thing else. I need to do some more research. I would hate to find out it is no different in those respects because I would have to rethink using. We might not have much choice seeing that is being sold in more and more places. Plus me and the truck like it so far. 

Edited by dripley

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Material compatibility (particularly rubber hoses), oil dilution,corrosion, filter plugging, decreased fuel mileage are all potential drawbacks associated with running higher blends of bio. Not to mention the higher the concentration the more prone the fuel is to mishandling at the terminal and fuel stations. I think I mentioned before I run B5 from a trusted station but am very hesitant to run anything more than that especially from an unknown source.

Oil dilution with fuel is caused by injectors not due to biodiesel. Fuel economy reduction is minor to none in some vehicles. Filter plugging is only an issue in winter not summer and also when filters can not be heated or ani-gel additives have not been added.

Now mishandling is from splash mixing which is a practice avoided now due to hazards. The additives and biodiesel are added and mixed in the piping and pumped into the truck.

After several PDF and procedural documents I have learned that there is just too much misinformation floating the net.

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Still no matter what is lower in BTU content... Not by much but petroleum diesel is the top of the BTU list and petroluem gasoline is top of the gasoline BTU list.

fuels.png

Excellent information thank you for that chart.

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I noticed this in the wife's Dakota. Her mileage was down 5% to 10% with ethanol. But her little foot weighs about 1000#'s. I have not noticed any decrease in the 2500, some increase actually. I am not sure what the Comp is contributing. Installed that at the same time I started running the Bio. I am currently running it off due to clutch slippage. It still does boost fooling and lets the truck fuel pretty good past 20 psi of boost where before it would defuel once I hit 20 psi. I cant explain the mileage when I am usually running around 77 or 78 on most interstates with a 70 mph limit, slower on others. I just ran at 18.5 mpg from Chattanooga Tn to Hickory NC and back. 50% of that trip was thru the Smokies. Alot of hills to pull but a lot of coasting also.

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I have run some B-5 but mostly B-15 and 20 for the past 8k miles with no ill effects. Matter of fact some fuel economy increase. I did add an Edge comp about the same time so not sure what effect this has had on the mileage. I ran a tank of this while back and got one of the best tanks mileage wise ever. IMG_20150823_213344590_HDR1.jpg I still ran 16oz's of 2 stroke with the B5 and the B15. The B20 and this stuff run quieter than straight #2 and 2 stroke.I have only been running the bio this spring and summer, not sure about winter. So far no ill effects. I hope I am not screwing anything up because I am seeing more and more Bio almost everywhere i have been in the past 8 months. It is getting more prevalent.

I guess I should add this. Many years ago when ethanol was first being pushed I thought that anything to get us of the arab teat had to be good. Since it has become so prevalent and the true cost is apparent I am against it. Every time you go to the grocery store you pay for it. I think the negatives outway the positives. That being said, I hope this is not as true for the Bio diesel. I know some of it comes from waste products, soy beans and such. I am not sure how these items effect any thing else. I need to do some more research. I would hate to find out it is no different in those respects because I would have to rethink using. We might not have much choice seeing that is being sold in more and more places. Plus me and the truck like it so far.

Good info. I don't think biodiesel blends are remotely bad as long as your truck is in good shape.

I'm running an ounce per gallon of 2 stroke so far all my fuel stations are 2% or 5% biodiesel. 5% biodiesel being the most common. Only reason I'm asking about stronger blends is because I may have a potential job that will include alot of travel and some stations only have blends greater than 10%.

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I noticed this in the wife's Dakota. Her mileage was down 5% to 10% with ethanol. But her little foot weighs about 1000#'s. I have not noticed any decrease in the 2500, some increase actually. I am not sure what the Comp is contributing. Installed that at the same time I started running the Bio. I am currently running it off due to clutch slippage. It still does boost fooling and lets the truck fuel pretty good past 20 psi of boost where before it would defuel once I hit 20 psi. I cant explain the mileage when I am usually running around 77 or 78 on most interstates with a 70 mph limit, slower on others. I just ran at 18.5 mpg from Chattanooga Tn to Hickory NC and back. 50% of that trip was thru the Smokies. Alot of hills to pull but a lot of coasting also.

Driving habits and conditions have more to do with fuel economy than the fuel. Sounds like you made some great milage on a slipping clutch.

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Oil dilution with fuel is caused by injectors not due to biodiesel. Fuel economy reduction is minor to none in some vehicles. Filter plugging is only an issue in winter not summer and also when filters can not be heated or ani-gel additives have not been added.

Now mishandling is from splash mixing which is a practice avoided now due to hazards. The additives and biodiesel are added and mixed in the piping and pumped into the truck.

After several PDF and procedural documents I have learned that there is just too much misinformation floating the net.

Biodiesel has a higher and narrower boiling range than regular diesel fuel, and does not evaporate from the crank case like #2 does. and because of its molecular structure it atomizes in Larger droplets coming out of the injector. This is particularly a problem in engines that use post injection cycles to burn the soot out of the DPF. Engine oil companies add specific antioxidants and additives to counter this.

Second, biodiesel that has been incorrectly mixed or stored (or stored too long) will plug filters regardless of the time of year, winter simply has a tendency to show b weaknesses quicker than #2.

Edited by JAG1
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You are the one spreading the misinformation here. Biodiesel has a higher and narrower boiling range than regular diesel fuel, and does not evaporate from the crank case like #2 does. and because of its molecular structure it atomizes in Larger droplets coming out of the injector. This is particularly a problem in engines that use post injection cycles to burn the soot out of the DPF. Engine oil companies add specific antioxidants and additives to counter this.

Second, biodiesel that has been incorrectly mixed or stored (or stored too long) will plug filters regardless of the time of year, winter simply has a tendency to show b weaknesses quicker than #2.

I am not spreading misinformation I am merely stating the facts. Now if you would like to continue trolling my post of fuel lubricity and stating biodiesel blends are bad due to what reasons you have justified to yourself, please continue and I will continue to ignore you. This thread was started to see what people are doing for fuel lubricity and what the Engine Manufacturers associations have done to help this long known issue. Please consider that we are talking about engines that have no DPF, SCR or EGR systems and our trucks do not have pre and post injection. Edited by Vais01

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LOL, if you think bio is the end all cure to diesel fuel quality you are sorely mistaken. The ONLY reason we have bio fuels is due to government driven subsidies and mandates. It has absolutely nothing to do with it being a superior product to #2. If it was superior the EMA and ASTM would recommend and possibly demand its use, as it is they say you MAY use up to x amount BUT knowing the quality of the fuel is YOUR responsibility, and your warranty WILL be voided if/when you get a bad dose. The only saving grace for bio is its lubricating properties, aside from that #2 is superior in every way. Ever see a dmaaged fuel system from a bad batch of bio? It ain't pretty.Bio is much worse than ULSD in terms of water retention and solvency, even worse than gasoline and methanol.

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Driving habits and conditions have more to do with fuel economy than the fuel. Sounds like you made some great milage on a slipping clutch.

 

Just so you know the clutch is not slipping with the comp off. Just made 420 mile run with the the 5th wheel(15k) in 5th gear and it never slipped. No matter how hard i was on the throttle. I only put in 6th a few times on level ground and did not slip it at half throttle. However if I turn on level one and get on it empty it slips as soon as the turbo spools. 

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Just so you know the clutch is not slipping with the comp off. Just made 420 mile run with the the 5th wheel(15k) in 5th gear and it never slipped. No matter how hard i was on the throttle. I only put in 6th a few times on level ground and did not slip it at half throttle. However if I turn on level one and get on it empty it slips as soon as the turbo spools.

Well it is a great excuse to upgrade. I'm not 100% familiar with the Comp Box and how it fuels to say try this or that and see if it slips.

I'd still say it's upgrade time.

What kind of fuel economy out of that trip? Bio blend percentage?

Edited by Vais01

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Well it is a great excuse to upgrade. I'm not 100% familiar with the Comp Box and how it fuels to say try this or that and see if it slips.

I'd still say it's upgrade time.

What kind of fuel economy out of that trip? Bio blend percentage?

 

On that trip with the 5th wheel, I stopped in Georgia and they sold straight #2. so the whole trip was on #2 and I got 10.1 mpg running 65 or a little under in 5th gear. The rv weighs 15k and is 12'-8" tall. Lots of drag.

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James, what information are you looking for?

Anything to do with fuel lubricity from biodiesel blends to additives used and the MPG associated.

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On that trip with the 5th wheel, I stopped in Georgia and they sold straight #2. so the whole trip was on #2 and I got 10.1 mpg running 65 or a little under in 5th gear. The rv weighs 15k and is 12'-8" tall. Lots of drag.

Oh yeah a whole lot of drag.

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If your truly interested on the effects of biofuels and what OEMs have to say about them, here is a good read.

http://www.theenergycollective.com/jared-anderson/450416/fuel-stability-problems-challenge-fame-biodiesel

Here is what Cummins has to say, take note of the part where they talk about maintenance intervals when switching from #2 to B20:

"Due to the solvent nature of B20, and the potential for ‘cleaning’ of the vehicle fuel tank and lines, new fuel filters must be installed when switching to B20 on used engines. Fuel filters will need to be replaced at half the standard interval for the next two fuel filter changes. After this initial period, you may revert to the intervals specified in your O & M manual.

For EPA 2007 on-highway midrange engines only, oil sampling will be necessary for the first 6 months of operation with B20 to monitor fuel dilution of the lubricating oil."

http://cumminsengines.com/biodiesel-faq

More opinions from OEMs

http://www.eia.gov/conference/2014/pdf/presentations/woebkenberg.pdf

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