New CJ-4 oils in older Flat Tappet Engine

[Dieselfuture]

Talked with cat dealer they got ci-4 plus mobil delvac made for cat 13.65 a gallon. Or 58.30 for 5 gallons. Might be going this rout. He said they use it on all generators that don't have dpf. And the ones that do they use cj-4. They woldnt tell me zink level but said that it had 12tbn.

[AH64ID]

Late to the party... I am not going to bother with quotes thou.

 

The reason I don't run CJ-4 isn't as much the Zinc/Phosphorous as the TBN. The biggest killer of oil in 2007+ engines is fuel dilution so there is no reason to have a TBN that outlasts the fuel dilution so the TBN was dropped (12.1 vs 10.4 when looking at Amsoil 15w-40 CI vs CJ), the CI-4 also has better wear scar testing and some other benefits. It's also CHEAPER!!!! IIRC Amsoil has a higher TBN CJ-4 oil than your standard conventional or synthetic oil.

 

All my friends with deleted 6.7's run the Amsoil CI-4+ AME oil.

 

The 6.7 still runs the same basic flat tappet setup as the 5.9 did when it was installed into a Dodge pickup in 1989 and it comes form the factory with CJ-4 so running CJ-4 for the reasons of the Zinc/Phosphorous should be mute.

 

Aftermarket cams like additional ZDDP for initial breakin due to the lobe size/pressure however the additives don't need to be ran for the life of the cam, depending on the size of the cam. TFaoro and I both have Hamilton cams and won't have to worry about ZDDP after a few oil changes (I am already there).

 

CajFlynn's is not comparable to anyone else on this forum, Michael I know you really want to be like him but sorry, and using him as a reference point is just a poor as TDR issue 57. TDR Issue 57 is OUT DATED and should be deleted from everyones mind, completely!! I get so tired of seeing it that it make me think the posters have never read it. (Sorry Micheal I have seen it on multiple sites in the last 6 weeks and TIRED of it). Using TDR 57 for your oil decision is like using a 1994 12V Service manual to work on the HPCR fuel system.

 

From where you live Michael one round trip to Riggins or McCall puts you out of the long haul oil change. Yes they are easy trips at a few miles but VERY different than long haul and easy trips can be harder on oil. From your house to Riggins my oil wouldn't even be hot. Do you keep track of engine hours(don't recall if 2nd gens have meters)? Or average MPH? Or average GPH? Those numbers are more indicative of long haul.

 

How do you go minimum 100 miles? You are about 15 miles from Riggins right? And 30-35 from McCall? Unless you only drive the truck to Ontario or Boise I don't see how you can go 100 miles minimum and even a 100 mile average would be difficult based on one round trip to Riggins you would have to have two other trips that average 185 miles each to get to a 100 mile trip average. Not trying to pick on you but a couple of your comments left me

 

In terms of filters there is only 1 filter I would recommend. The Donaldson DBL7349 (aka ELF7349). This is the only filter capable (97.5%) of matching the oil pump flow. Even the OEM filters are not rated for the full flow of the oil pump but rather the flow at cruise rpms. The oil pump is rated for 20.5 GPM at 4200 rpms and the OEM filters are rated for 8.72 GPM. The Donaldson is rated for 20 GPM. The Donaldson also has far superior filtration ratings (15µ absolute vs 25µ absolute for the Stratapore)

 

Speaking of Ro-Smella I have noticed a small oil odor during the first couple thousand miles with my new engine. This most recent change the odor is still there but MUCH lower. Even with 40% of the 17K miles on the new engine being towing (and 90% of those above 18K GCW) I guess there is still some breaking in to do.

[Vais01]

Late to the party... I am not going to bother with quotes thou.

The reason I don't run CJ-4 isn't as much the Zinc/Phosphorous as the TBN. The biggest killer of oil in 2007+ engines is fuel dilution so there is no reason to have a TBN that outlasts the fuel dilution so the TBN was dropped (12.1 vs 10.4 when looking at Amsoil 15w-40 CI vs CJ), the CI-4 also has better wear scar testing and some other benefits. It's also CHEAPER!!!! IIRC Amsoil has a higher TBN CJ-4 oil than your standard conventional or synthetic oil.

All my friends with deleted 6.7's run the Amsoil CI-4+ AME oil.

The 6.7 still runs the same basic flat tappet setup as the 5.9 did when it was installed into a Dodge pickup in 1989 and it comes form the factory with CJ-4 so running CJ-4 for the reasons of the Zinc/Phosphorous should be mute.

Aftermarket cams like additional ZDDP for initial breakin due to the lobe size/pressure however the additives don't need to be ran for the life of the cam, depending on the size of the cam. TFaoro and I both have Hamilton cams and won't have to worry about ZDDP after a few oil changes (I am already there).

CajFlynn's is not comparable to anyone else on this forum, Michael I know you really want to be like him but sorry, and using him as a reference point is just a poor as TDR issue 57. TDR Issue 57 is OUT DATED and should be deleted from everyone mind, completely!! I get so tired of seeing it that it make me think the posters have never read it. (Sorry Micheal I have seen it on multiple sites in the last 6 weeks and TIRED of it). Using TDR 57 for your oil decision is like using a 1994 12V Service manual to work on the HPCR fuel system.

From where you live Michael one round trip to Riggins or McCall puts you out of the long haul oil change. Yes they are easy trips at a few miles but VERY different than long haul and easy trips can be harder on oil. From your house to Riggins my oil wouldn't even be hot. Do you keep track of engine hours(don't recall if 2nd gens have meters)? Or average MPH? Or average GPH? Those numbers are more indicative of long haul.

How do you go minimum 100 miles? You are about 15 miles from Riggins right? And 30-35 from McCall? Unless you only drive the truck to Ontario or Boise I don't see how you can go 100 miles minimum and even a 100 mile average would be difficult based on one round trip to Riggins you would have to have two other trips that average 185 miles each to get to a 100 mile trip average. Not trying to pick on you but a couple of your comments left me

In terms of filters there is only 1 filter I would recommend. The Donaldson DBL7349 (aka ELF7349). This is the only filter capable (97.5%) of matching the oil pump flow. Even the OEM filters are not rated for the full flow of the oil pump but rather the flow at cruise rpms. The oil pump is rated for 20.5 GPM at 4200 rpms and the OEM filters are rated for 8.72 GPM. The Donaldson is rated for 20 GPM. The Donaldson also has far superior filtration ratings (15µ absolute vs 25µ absolute for the Stratapore)

Speaking of Ro-Smella I have noticed a small oil odor during the first couple thousand miles with my new engine. This most recent change the odor is still there but MUCH lower. Even with 40% of the 17K miles on the new engine being towing (and 90% of those above 18K GCW) I guess there is still some breaking in to do.

Definitely agree with the above posted info.

Just an FYI my oil analysis at 5460 miles showed a TBN of 8.8 and Phosphorous PPM of 1165 and Zinc PPM of 1391.

This is using Rotella T6 and a Baldwin BD7317 filter which is a 20 micron absolute and an internal 5 micron bypass.

I would be using the Donaldson ELF7349 filter if I could source one locally but no one has it or is willing to order it without a case being placed on order.

[Vais01]

Talked with cat dealer they got ci-4 plus mobil delvac made for cat 13.65 a gallon. Or 58.30 for 5 gallons. Might be going this rout. He said they use it on all generators that don't have dpf. And the ones that do they use cj-4. They woldnt tell me zink level but said that it had 12tbn.

Here is some data on the oil they quoted you on. Unfortunately no zinc values or phosphorus values.

https://mobildelvac.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-delvac/mobil-delvac-mx

[AH64ID]

Definitely agree with the above posted info.

Just an FYI my oil analysis at 5460 miles showed a TBN of 8.8 and Phosphorous PPM of 1165 and Zinc PPM of 1391.

This is using Rotella T6 and a Baldwin BD7317 filter which is a 20 micron absolute and an internal 5 micron bypass.

I would be using the Donaldson ELF7349 filter if I could source one locally but no one has it or is willing to order it without a case being placed on order.

 

Try using www.filterspro.com for filters.

 

My last UOA was at 7,730 miles (266 engine hours and 10 months) with a TBN of 8.5. I burned right at 600 gallons on that OCI for an average of 12.8 mpgs so I would say that the oil was worked quite hard! I had 1387 ppm on Zinc and 1150 ppm on phosphorous. This was with Amsoil AME, a Donaldson ELF7349, and a EaBP-110 which gives me a sump capacity of approx 14 quarts.

 

EDIT: May as well just post the UOA. Disregard the Moly and Magnesium flags as they are leftover from the first 3 changes with Delo 400. The Severity would have been a 0 if not for the slight oil mixing.

[Vais01]

Try using www.filterspro.com for filters.

My last UOA was at 7,730 miles (266 engine hours and 10 months) with a TBN of 8.5. I burned right at 600 gallons on that OCI for an average of 12.8 mpgs so I would say that the oil was worked quite hard! I had 1387 ppm on Zinc and 1150 ppm on phosphorous. This was with Amsoil AME, a Donaldson ELF7349, and a EaBP-110 which gives me a sump capacity of approx 14 quarts.

EDIT: May as well just post the UOA. Disregard the Moly and Magnesium flags as they are leftover from the first 3 changes with Delo 400. The Severity would have been a 0 if not for the slight oil mixing.

Judging from what I see you could have gone upwards of 15,000 on your OCI.

Question are you running the factory turbo and air box? I'll explain once I know this.

I try and source my filters locally but I will see what they have to offer thank you for the link.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Vais01

[AH64ID]

Factory airbox and air filter. The airbox has been modded with a Home Depot CAI and and Airaid MIT.

 

The turbo is a Garrett Stage 2 GT3782R.

 

I think I could have gone a lot longer on the oil but it was my first change with synthetic on the new engine and I was about to tow in some hot weather.

 

I typically sample at 7,500 and run until 12 months but wanted to cut it short on the first long one... thou I don't have a good reason to.

[Royal Squire]

What is difference between DBL 7349 and ELF 7349

[AH64ID]

What is difference between DBL 7349 and ELF 7349

 

The name. It is one of the few filters that went to the DBL (Donaldson Blue) line without any changes other than part number/paint.

[Vais01]

Factory airbox and air filter. The airbox has been modded with a Home Depot CAI and and Airaid MIT.

The turbo is a Garrett Stage 2 GT3782R.

I think I could have gone a lot longer on the oil but it was my first change with synthetic on the new engine and I was about to tow in some hot weather.

I typically sample at 7,500 and run until 12 months but wanted to cut it short on the first long one... thou I don't have a good reason to.

I asked because I saw titanium. Unless you used titanium valve keepers it would have been from the turbo. Fresh engine eliminates the 11 PPM silicon theory I had.

I don't believe Garrett uses a titanium compressor wheel in the turbo nor are the bearings constructed of such but I could be wrong.

The silicon values are probably leftovers from the new engine.

[AH64ID]

I asked because I saw titanium. Unless you used titanium valve keepers it would have been from the turbo. Fresh engine eliminates the 11 PPM silicon theory I had.

I don't believe Garrett uses a titanium compressor wheel in the turbo nor are the bearings constructed of such but I could be wrong.

The silicon values are probably leftovers from the new engine.

 

My titanium has always been at zero, both stock turbo and garrett, so I am not sure where that came from.

 

I do a TON of dusty road driving and often heavy where the engine airflow is high. 11 is one of my lowest readings and have found the OEM filter to be the best I have ran.

[Vais01]

My titanium has always been at zero, both stock turbo and garrett, so I am not sure where that came from.

I do a TON of dusty road driving and often heavy where the engine airflow is high. 11 is one of my lowest readings and have found the OEM filter to be the best I have ran.

I myself agree with this statement. I am using a Donaldson Powercore based filter because the media can flow so well and actually filter the air better than OE. I may go back to the airbox and keep this filter for when I go make dyno runs. Edited September 15, 2015 by Vais01

[Dieselfuture]

Wow you guys been busy, so DBL7349 is same as EA080 from amsoil? What about LF16035 fleet guard for full flow or LF9028 as full flow with bypass built in to it? And is there any other good buy pass filters that can go on same place as EABP filters from amsoil? I got a thread adapter from ebay that makes it bigger not sure how much. Also I got some oil from cat today in 5gallon bucket and they do oil sampling so I opened it up and took a fresh oil sample to see what it had in it for real numbers. I'll post results later when I get it.

[AH64ID]

Yes DBL7349=ELF7349=EaO80.

All of the Fleetguards are rated at 8.72GPH. You really won't find a better filter than the Donaldson. They now have a cheaper one, forget the part number, that is also 15um absolute but IIRC it had a lower dirt holding capacity.

I am not aware of and bypass filters for the Amsoil head. I would have researched filters before buying a filter adapter. The only adapter I see on eBay makes it smaller, not larger.

[Dieselfuture]

Can you walk into any parts stores and ask for it or do you have to order it on line?

I did more reading on adding zddp plus to oils and this one guy claims it makes it worse, so maybe not a good idea. Seems like half say add it to cj4 and the other half says don't. So if this ci4plus turns out to have good data from oil analises I'm just going to go and buy 5 or so 5 gallon buckets of it and it will last me at least 5 years.

[Dieselfuture]

Yes DBL7349=ELF7349=EaO80.

All of the Fleetguards are rated at 8.72GPH. You really won't find a better filter than the Donaldson. They now have a cheaper one, forget the part number, that is also 15um absolute but IIRC it had a lower dirt holding capacity.

I am not aware of and bypass filters for the Amsoil head. I would have researched filters before buying a filter adapter. The only adapter I see on eBay makes it smaller, not larger.

What is the size of the thread of bypass on amsoil ? I'll go see what I got. Just measured it, it looks like 3/4 to 1" editing again looks like I got crewed a bit by ebay, according to amsoil it's 1 by 1/16 so adapter I got won't work. Donaldson needs to make filter that fits this thing. Edited September 15, 2015 by Dieselfuture

[Vais01]

I did more reading on adding zddp plus to oils and this one guy claims it makes it worse, so maybe not a good idea. Seems like half say add it to cj4 and the other half says don't. So if this ci4plus turns out to have good data from oil analises I'm just going to go and buy 5 or so 5 gallon buckets of it and it will last me at least 5 years.

One of the additives within some blends of ZDDP is sulfur which oxidizes the oil and begins lowering TBN. So far this is what has been reported. Not sure if all mixtures have sulfur but if so this is detrimental to the oil. This was the key reason for removing it from the fuel prior to DPF vehicles.

[Royal Squire]

Thank you AH64 for filter info. Very helpful.

[AH64ID]

What is the size of the thread of bypass on amsoil ? I'll go see what I got. Just measured it, it looks like 3/4 to 1" editing again looks like I got crewed a bit by ebay, according to amsoil it's 1 by 1/16 so adapter I got won't work. Donaldson needs to make filter that fits this thing.

 

Yeah that is the adapter I saw. 

 

Unless there is a big plate with the adapter you cannot go larger with just a small piece. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Ok so my TDR doc is out of date but I've never found anything newer. Is TDR going to release a newer article?

 

As for my distance. I don't just drive to town once. I might drive to McCall for parts, I might drive to White bird to work on fire trucks, then drive home for dinner, then drive back out for New Meadows, ID for hardware. You never know here but my average minimum distance is about 100 miles per driving day.

 

As For oil I'm never going to profess to be absolute perfect but... CJ-4 oils can't be the work of the devil either. Way to many vehicle on the highway with dumb people going to Jiffy Lube and changing oil. Their vehicles didn't just fall apart. As for using CajFylnn yes he's one of my documented people I can use for distance. As for other there was a few others but slipped away before reaching 1 million. A few here that well past 500k miles without much effort again slipped way with little documentation.

 

Now working in two shops now I can say that there is more people that just don't give a darn and use what ever is cheap. There is a few people in the years I've doing work that will provide a synthetic oil for there rig. (Very Very Rare!). But in all the oil changes I've done I've seen plenty of CJ-4 dumped in a crankcase and plenty dump out and never seen any diesel dying from it. I've got Ford diesel's with 300k and 400k miles and still kicking around me. Dodge Cummins trucks same way 300k to 500k miles easy.

 

I will say yes that CJ-4 isn't like CI-4 oils but it's not the end of the world nor is the crank going to grind way to nothing.