Cold Morning Rountines

[AH64ID]

1 hour ago, Vais01 said:

I normally idle mine long enough to eat breakfast. Here in Texas for the past 2 days our mornings have been around 40 to 42 degrees and within the 10 to 15 min I take to put down a little breakfast my truck is just over 140 degrees. I don't get hard on it until I'm over 165 degrees. I've had this truck in 7 degree weather with no grid heater and only additives to keep gelling at bay. At that temp it took almost 35 minutes of idle time to get it to 140 degrees. The grid heaters really help warm up time too. 

 

Do you hate your engine?? 35 minutes is WAAAYYY to long. Even 10-15 minutes is TOO much.

Cummins defines excess idling as anything over 10 minutes and only recommends 3-5 minutes at most. 35 minutes is a great way to damage cylinder walls.

I have never really understood the facination with idling an engine until it's warm. People do it at work for an hour or more and it makes me cringe every time.

 

If you want your engine to warm up without damage then DRIVE it, don't idle it.

 

 

Just seeing your post MoparMan, but you will NEVER get me to even consider the effects of windchill on an engine because by definition it CANNOT happen...end of story. You will have better luck convincing me the sky is fluorescent green.

Edited December 5, 2015 by AH64ID

[Vais01]

11 hours ago, AH64ID said:

 

Do you hate your engine?? 35 minutes is WAAAYYY to long. Even 10-15 minutes is TOO much.

Cummins defines excess idling as anything over 10 minutes and only recommends 3-5 minutes at most. 35 minutes is a great way to damage cylinder walls.

I have never really understood the facination with idling an engine until it's warm. People do it at work for an hour or more and it makes me cringe every time.

 

If you want your engine to warm up without damage then DRIVE it, don't idle it.

 

 

Just seeing your post MoparMan, but you will NEVER get me to even consider the effects of windchill on an engine because by definition it CANNOT happen...end of story. You will have better luck convincing me the sky is fluorescent green.

How can idling hurt the cylinder walls? 

Odd you say that because my local Cummins shop state that idle (675-800 RPM) is known as low idle and high idle is 1200 RPM on the VP trucks and if I remember 1000-1100 on newer 6.7 engines. 

My oil analysis shows low iron counts and usually only 1 ppm of chromium with that idle time. 

 

 

Windchill on an engine? Never heard of it even with 16 cylinder CAT engines that sit outside all day for their entire lives running. 

[AH64ID]

The lower combustion temperatures and pressures of idling, especially on a cold engine, can create incomplete combustion that "washes" the cylinder walls with fuel. This is why Cummins advises against it and considers anything over 10 minutes excessive.

Yes low idle is the standard idle and fast idle (high idle is rated rpm at no load) is the 1000, 1200, etc. It is better, but still not advised to idle an engine until warm. That is directly from Cummins, as well as every engine manufacturer I know of.

Get a block heater and a timer, then drive it about 30 seconds after you fire it up unless it is VERY cold (low teens or lower) then give it a 1-3 minute idle to let the oil warm up a little and drive easy.

 

I am with you on windchill, but there are some in this thread that thinks it effects engines.

[Wild and Free]

Terminology 101.

 

Low idle equals just that idle speed.

 

High idle equals full throttle foot to the floor governed speed, every mfg I have ever seen refers to maximum governed engine speed as High idle.

 

Elevated idle is what everyone talks about wanting for warm up and extended idle as high idle which is wrong term for elevated idle.

 

As far as wind, excuse me my bad for throwing the term "Wind Chill"  which is a scientific weather term  into the mix, no it does not have an effect on iron, I do not use engines in this alone as I am talking all lubricated forms of equipment iron overall..................But wind alone does in extreme cold conditions talking sub zero here alone, even on a dead cold hunk of iron and years of experience will not change my mind. On any chunk of iron which is running or plugged in  there is parasytic heat loss which is directly affected by "Elevated air movement' lol.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Wild and Free

[Vais01]

32 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

The lower combustion temperatures and pressures of idling, especially on a cold engine, can create incomplete combustion that "washes" the cylinder walls with fuel. This is why Cummins advises against it and considers anything over 10 minutes excessive.

Yes low idle is the standard idle and fast idle (high idle is rated rpm at no load) is the 1000, 1200, etc. It is better, but still not advised to idle an engine until warm. That is directly from Cummins, as well as every engine manufacturer I know of.

Get a block heater and a timer, then drive it about 30 seconds after you fire it up unless it is VERY cold (low teens or lower) then give it a 1-3 minute idle to let the oil warm up a little and drive easy.

 

I am with you on windchill, but there are some in this thread that thinks it effects engines.

I have a block heater but no way to power it in an apartment complex. I rely on an idle warm-up out here. Usually 10-15 min while eating breakfast. I need to buy a new engine to build a new one to install in the truck. I've got a handful of things going on within this engine that need to happen ASAP. 

3 minutes ago, Wild and Free said:

Terminology 101.

 

Low idle equals just that idle speed.

 

High idle equals full throttle foot to the floor governed engine speed and all mfgs I have ever seen refer to this as High idle.

 

Elevated idle is the correct term for what everyone talks about wanting for warm up and extended idle as high idle which is wrong term for elevated idle.

 

As far as wind, excuse me my bad for throwing the term "Wind Chill"  which is a scientific weather term  into the mix, no it does not have an effect on iron, I do not use engines in this alone as I am talking all lubricated forms of equipment iron overall..................But wind alone does in extreme cold conditions talking sub zero here alone, even on a dead cold hunk of iron and years of experience will not change my mind. On any chunk of iron which is running or plugged in  there is parasytic heat loss which is directly affected by "Elevated air movement' lol.

Seem plenty of equipment run subzero Temps and while driving at 30-50 mph at -25 and -40 degrees F all the cold air does is keep the thermostat from ever opening up. 

[LiveOak]

16 hours ago, Vais01 said:

I normally idle mine long enough to eat breakfast. Here in Texas for the past 2 days our mornings have been around 40 to 42 degrees and within the 10 to 15 min I take to put down a little breakfast my truck is just over 140 degrees. I don't get hard on it until I'm over 165 degrees. I've had this truck in 7 degree weather with no grid heater and only additives to keep gelling at bay. At that temp it took almost 35 minutes of idle time to get it to 140 degrees. The grid heaters really help warm up time too. 

Did you remove or bypass the fuel filter canister on the engine?  My reason for asking is that I decided to route my 1/2 big line kit through the engine fuel filter canister because it contains the fuel heater.  Something you REALLY want to keep in a severe cold climate.

[CSM]

I've been fuel heater delete on my 2000 and my 02.  Colorado and Wyoming, to include mountain overnights.  I've gotten unplugged starts into the -20s with no fuel additive on a regular basis... Cranky, but thats normal.  With a block heater the trucks started fine. 

IMO, the fuel heater is only going to keep fuel warm.  A heater won't ungel fuel and subsequently won't help for initial starts.  It would be nice to have, but I don't think it is really going to save anybody.  I would rather have the extra filter than anything else. 

Edited December 5, 2015 by CSM

[AH64ID]

On 12/5/2015, 10:50:16, Wild and Free said:

On any chunk of iron which is running or plugged in  there is parasytic heat loss which is directly affected by "Elevated air movement' lol.

Absolutely, but it cannot get colder than ambient which was my point. On a -40° day with enough time the same piece of iron will get to the same temp in a 2mph wind as a 60 mph wind, the iron just gets there MUCH faster on the 60 mph day.. but at the end of the day they would both start the same but one would take longer to get to temp. 

On 12/5/2015, 10:52:38, Vais01 said:

I have a block heater but no way to power it in an apartment complex. I rely on an idle warm-up out here. Usually 10-15 min while eating breakfast. I need to buy a new engine to build a new one to install in the truck. I've got a handful of things going on within this engine that need to happen ASAP. 

I would work into a new habit before the new engine arrives. 10-15 minute is still considered excessive and likely does more harm than good. 

 

On 12/5/2015, 1:43:52, CSM said:

I've been fuel heater delete on my 2000 and my 02.  Colorado and Wyoming, to include mountain overnights.  I've gotten unplugged starts into the -20s with no fuel additive on a regular basis... Cranky, but thats normal.  With a block heater the trucks started fine. 

IMO, the fuel heater is only going to keep fuel warm.  A heater won't ungel fuel and subsequently won't help for initial starts.  It would be nice to have, but I don't think it is really going to save anybody.  I would rather have the extra filter than anything else. 

I had fuel gel on me once but it was B20 so that was a bigger factor than anything; however, it still sucked so I added a 2nd fuel heater to my truck. 

I can see a change in fuel pressure when the fuel warms up from the twin 300w heaters on a cold day (more so than just when I had 1 300w heater). It takes a while, but the pressure does go up and the flucutions with power changes are much smaller. 

[Vais01]

On Monday, December 07, 2015 at 10:59 AM, AH64ID said:

Absolutely, but it cannot get colder than ambient which was my point. On a -40° day with enough time the same piece of iron will get to the same temp in a 2mph wind as a 60 mph wind, the iron just gets there MUCH faster on the 60 mph day.. but at the end of the day they would both start the same but one would take longer to get to temp. 

I would work into a new habit before the new engine arrives. 10-15 minute is still considered excessive and likely does more harm than good. 

 

I had fuel gel on me once but it was B20 so that was a bigger factor than anything; however, it still sucked so I added a 2nd fuel heater to my truck. 

I can see a change in fuel pressure when the fuel warms up from the twin 300w heaters on a cold day (more so than just when I had 1 300w heater). It takes a while, but the pressure does go up and the flucutions with power changes are much smaller. 

It's not so much that the fuel gels but rather that the cold filter plug point has been met. B20 begins building crystals earlier than B2 or B5. B10 and B20 will work fine with a filter heater. 

[AH64ID]

10 hours ago, Vais01 said:

It's not so much that the fuel gels but rather that the cold filter plug point has been met. B20 begins building crystals earlier than B2 or B5. B10 and B20 will work fine with a filter heater. 

Which is from fuel gelling...  It doesn't have to completely gel to plug the filter thou, which is what I think your point was :-)

Yeah Bio starts to gel much sooner. In my case the "Bio compatible" treatments were not "bio compatible". 

Edited December 9, 2015 by AH64ID

[Vais01]

7 hours ago, AH64ID said:

Which is from fuel gelling...  It doesn't have to completely gel to plug the filter thou, which is what I think your point was :-)

Yeah Bio starts to gel much sooner. In my case the "Bio compatible" treatments were not "bio compatible". 

I try to keep the 2 separated because too many confuse the two.

[01_USACummins]

So in general what would everyone consider is the better fuel for our trucks or does it not matter? I'm taking in general not cold weather related. Regardless I treat my fuel with 2 cycle oil every tank anyhow and to my knowledge it helps prevent fuel from gelling. 

[dripley]

I have been running a lot of bio diesel for the past 10k miles or so with no bad results. My mileage has even remained mostly the same. it seems most stations are selling it in the areas i have been working lately. I have run the B-5 to B-20, bio blend, bio mass, bio diesel. And since B-5 and below does not have to be labeled on the pump I might be running more than I know. I have cut down on 2 cycle oil depending on what fuel i get. This will be the first winter I will have used it. I do not typically see the crazy low temps a lot of the other folks on here see but it will be on my mind if I keep running it this winter. The other thing that bugs me about it is even when labeled for whatever percentage, the label states it "may" contain up to whatever percentage that is shown. So it seems kind of crap shoot as to what you are really getting. I probably need to cut one of my fuel lines open to see if it is harming them in any way. So as far as I can tell right now it is working fine for me. That being said if pull in some where that has straight #2 I would probably feel better with that for the winter.

[AH64ID]

I treat every tank with Amsoil Diesel Concentrate, and have since day 1 so I cannot comment on its effectiveness. 

When I doubt or suspect the winterization of fuel I will also treat it with Amsoil Cold Flow Improver. This is typically for October hunting as most stations have not switched to winterized yet and I can see temps in the low teens or colder. I will also treat if I am traveling cross country and have to buy fuel in a warmer climate and am headed to a colder climate. 

Once winter hits I stop adding cold flow improver and just rely on the winterized fuel which, aside from the B20 debacle, has never let me down. 

 

2-stroke does not have anything in it that would effect the gel point/cold filter plug point of #2. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by AH64ID

[Vais01]

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 2:15 PM, AH64ID said:

I treat every tank with Amsoil Diesel Concentrate, and have since day 1 so I cannot comment on its effectiveness. 

When I doubt or suspect the winterization of fuel I will also treat it with Amsoil Cold Flow Improver. This is typically for October hunting as most stations have not switched to winterized yet and I can see temps in the low teens or colder. I will also treat if I am traveling cross country and have to buy fuel in a warmer climate and am headed to a colder climate. 

Once winter hits I stop adding cold flow improver and just rely on the winterized fuel which, aside from the B20 debacle, has never let me down. 

 

2-stroke does not have anything in it that would effect the gel point/cold filter plug point of #2. 

If I plan on driving in sub freezing areas I have another additive I would add to my fuel in addition to 2-stroke oil. As you said 2-stroke oil does nothing for cold flow but I do know it does not affect it much either.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Vais01