Quadzilla Adrenaline V2 Testing

[TFaoro]

28 minutes ago, Carbur8tr said:

 

@Me78569 I hate to bring this up, but I think the upper end of the boost pressure reading is either showing a little bit of an error or the cold air is effecting the overall pressure.  You know my data fairly well and never have you or I seen over 42 psi, well that is until recently.  I have this set of data then yesterday's where I pulled numbers over 45psi.  Any thoughts?  I've included the data below. No rush, just seeing what you thought.

 

I would not be worried about 3psi. 

So, I THINK I've seen more boost with more timing, although I don't have definitive data to back that up. I might work with @Me78569 to get that data for sure. Might work on the pulling timing as well to see the effects. 

[xxTJRocksxx]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 8:51 PM, xxTJRocksxx said:

Hey Guys,

 

I did a quick experiment the other night regarding max timing. Here is my results

 

All tests were done on the same tune, with timing scaling at 53%.

 

Starting conditions were 80* ambient, coasting 40MPH in 4th Gear 1:1 ~1500RPMs

 

Test performed: Time from 0PSI to 20 PSI boost.

clock starts at 100%TPS.

 

Test 1 Max timing 15* - 0-20PSI = 2.16 Seconds

Test 2 Max timing 10* - 0-20PSI = 2.09 Seconds

Test 3 Max timing 8* - 0-20PSI = 2.07 Seconds

Test 4 Max timing 6* - 0-20PSI = 2.09 Seconds.

 

I did this test with an IPhone, so there could be up to 0.09 seconds error from reaction time.

 

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 8:55 PM, Me78569 said:

Great info,

 

What happens if you use your 12* with %80 scaling for timing limit, but use 3-5* of timing on the timing reduction variable?  

 

That should make your boost climb like test 4, since it will hold timing lower longer, but keep timing up top near 25*.  Cake and eat it too.   

NEW INFO!!!

 

Hey guys, I ran the following tests today

 

All tests were done on the same tune, with timing scaling at 80%, and Timing Reduction varied from 3.5 to 4.5*

 

Starting conditions were 80* ambient, coasting 40MPH in 4th Gear 1:1 ~1500RPMs

 

Test performed: Time from 0PSI to 20 PSI boost.

clock starts at 100%TPS.

 

Test 1 - Max timing 12* / Reduct 3.5* - 0-20PSI = 1.91 Seconds

Test 8 - Max timing 12* / Reduct 4.5* - 0-20PSI = 1.93 Seconds

 

Test 2 - Max timing 10* / Reduct 3.5* - 0-20PSI = 2.00 Seconds

Test 7 - Max timing 10* / Reduct 4.5* - 0-20PSI = 2.05 Seconds

 

Test 3 - Max timing 8* / Reduct 3.5* - 0-20PSI = 2.04 Seconds.

Test 6 - Max timing 8* / Reduct 4.5* - 0-20PSI = 2.03 Seconds.

 

Test 4 - Max timing 6* / Reduct 3.5* - 0-20PSI = 2.12 Seconds.

Test 5 - Max timing 6* / Reduct 4.5* - 0-20PSI = 2.07 Seconds.

 

Bonus - PL=0 (Stock) 0-20PSI = 1.92 Seconds >>>>>> Data log recorded 1.80 Second Actual

 

Please see below Data log and picure from PL=0

Timing Tests.xlsx

@TFaoro Could you data log a 40 MPH roll on PL=0 for me? Looking for 100% TPS on flat ground, and 0% TPS after reaching 20 PSI of boost. You need to indicate 0-1 PSI before 100% TPS.

 

If anyone has stock injectors, could you please do the same and send the log to me?

 

[TFaoro]

@xxTJRocksxx What're you looking for out of these logs? There is no way to compare vehicle to vehicle considering elevation, mods, injection pump health, tire size, gearing, etc. 

I've also got some severe lag on my MAP sensor as boost will jump as much as 8+ psi in under 0.3 seconds, so I'm not sure if the numbers will be worth anything. 

At 1580 rpm the logs say 2.5 seconds.

At 1170 rpm the logs say 6.8 seconds. 

[Carbur8tr]

On 12/8/2016 at 9:50 PM, Me78569 said:

@Carbur8tr

 

I gave you more boost for free 

 

 

 

 

I'll look and see but honestly the boost thing isn't of huge concern to me provided it is stable down low.  

 

 

 

Haha I'll take more power for free any day!

 

 

On 12/8/2016 at 10:18 PM, TFaoro said:

 

I would not be worried about 3psi. 

So, I THINK I've seen more boost with more timing, although I don't have definitive data to back that up. I might work with @Me78569 to get that data for sure. Might work on the pulling timing as well to see the effects. 

 

So Max was 50, so a difference in 8 psi.  I'm with you on it not being too big of a deal and trust me it doesn't worry me one bit considering what the truck use to run at. 

[xxTJRocksxx]

13 hours ago, TFaoro said:

@xxTJRocksxx What're you looking for out of these logs? There is no way to compare vehicle to vehicle considering elevation, mods, injection pump health, tire size, gearing, etc. 

I've also got some severe lag on my MAP sensor as boost will jump as much as 8+ psi in under 0.3 seconds, so I'm not sure if the numbers will be worth anything. 

At 1580 rpm the logs say 2.5 seconds.

At 1170 rpm the logs say 6.8 seconds. 

Oh you have a big turbo then but 2.5 is what I expected ~1500 RPMs.

 

I wanted to overlay yours to mine to see what the ECU is doing with timing during all of this. you have injectors double the size of mine, and I wanted someone with stockers to do the same.

 

I have been studying the timing reduction curve and now that I have a good timing curve for my setup 12*@80%, I wanted to see how the ECU fuels and times during low boost with different mods. It should be identical but I have a sneaking suspicion that its not even close.

[Me78569]

Doesn't matter what mods the truck has the ecm will do the same thing based upon sensor input, it doesn't take Moda into consideration.

 

 

As for what the ecm does you can just data log on lvl0.

[TFaoro]

7 hours ago, xxTJRocksxx said:

Oh you have a big turbo then but 2.5 is what I expected ~1500 RPMs.

 

I wanted to overlay yours to mine to see what the ECU is doing with timing during all of this. you have injectors double the size of mine, and I wanted someone with stockers to do the same.

 

I have been studying the timing reduction curve and now that I have a good timing curve for my setup 12*@80%, I wanted to see how the ECU fuels and times during low boost with different mods. It should be identical but I have a sneaking suspicion that its not even close.

The graphs you'll get will be completely different because RPM will be different. Now if you power braked at exactly 1500rpm while stock and I did the same the graphs would be identical. ECM has no way of detecting hard part changes like injectors, turbos, ets. 

[Me78569]

 

 

 

@xxTJRocksxx Any videos to share?  I am jones'n to see them.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Me78569

[xxTJRocksxx]

@Me78569 Sorry guys, the last couple weeks have been hectic. My Landlord decided to sell my house out of the blue so I had to get ready to make an offer to buy it and such.

 

Videos are not great because its hard to record, shift, and drive at the same time lol.

 

 

 

On a good note, I just finished my ARP studs, I did them in a 1 for 1 fashion. Man that was not as easy as I had presumed. Still have to go back tomorrow and re check valve lash after a few miles. Looking forward to 55 PSI Daily though.

 

Also, I made a couple new tunes over the weekend if anyone is interested in the curves. Pretty much I am happy with my current Mileage tune XM2, but I don't really think much fuel is needed at cruise above 10 PSI. That being said I made a weird "S" Shaped tune that I am going to test next tank of fuel and see how it does. My truck really likes a load between 14-18%, and I get great mileage in this range, and O.K. mileage between 18% - 22%.

 

As for V2, Like I have previously said my only complaints are with the I Quad App, and not the tuning.

 

TimingVariables = Awesome. - I am not really seeing too much difference in performance with different timing sets, in a part throttle / daily commute. I do see some responsiveness and spool changes if I tweak too much, but the envelope is pretty big. I kind of found the two extremes of this and then settled on my 12* @ 80% standard. Seems like the 5.9 will go balls deep regardless of timing as long as its in the ball park. I'm sure more precise changes would be measured on the Dyno.

 

Would be interesting if someone on here had access to a dyno and we could play with the timing and record the effects of more or less degrees + Scaling + Reduct +Reduct Scaling. obviously different mods would change data, but generalizations could be made.

 

Fueling Variables = Canbus is great. Wiretap could use a couple features. Since the quad controls the wiretap fuel map, it would be nice but not extremely useful to have the ability to modify the wiretap scaling. I know we have TPS variable control for it , but Aside from min and max the quad determines how much and when.

 

The only benefit to scaling the wiretap would be to modify the curve to get more wire tap faster, or less slower. Just wondering if that could be helpful for the guys running 80+ mm turbos that need tons of fire to get them to light off.

[TFaoro]

1 hour ago, xxTJRocksxx said:

On a good note, I just finished my ARP studs, I did them in a 1 for 1 fashion. Man that was not as easy as I had presumed. Still have to go back tomorrow and re check valve lash after a few miles. Looking forward to 55 PSI Daily though

If you can I would highly suggest breaking each stud completely loose and torquing it back down in sequence twice. It take the stretch out of the new stud. I've seen too many reports of people popping head gaskets after a stud install to not suggest it. 

 

1 hour ago, xxTJRocksxx said:

Fueling Variables = Canbus is great. Wiretap could use a couple features. Since the quad controls the wiretap fuel map, it would be nice but not extremely useful to have the ability to modify the wiretap scaling. I know we have TPS variable control for it , but Aside from min and max the quad determines how much and when.

 

The only benefit to scaling the wiretap would be to modify the curve to get more wire tap faster, or less slower. Just wondering if that could be helpful for the guys running 80+ mm turbos that need tons of fire to get them to light off.

Wiretap is scaled under "boost scaling." It works in conjunction with "pump low boost scale psi."

You set the "pump low boost scale psi" then add that number to the "boost scaling" and you have your map.

Wiretap will start at "pump low boost scale psi" and max out at "boost scaling" + "pump low boost scale psi."

 

For those needing to pour the fuel on the fire, "Pump low boost%" is used to dump extra fuel early. Although, I've found pouring too much fuel on the fire puts the fire out. 

[xxTJRocksxx]

8 hours ago, TFaoro said:

If you can I would highly suggest breaking each stud completely loose and torquing it back down in sequence twice. It take the stretch out of the new stud. I've seen too many reports of people popping head gaskets after a stud install to not suggest it. 

 

Wiretap is scaled under "boost scaling." It works in conjunction with "pump low boost scale psi."

You set the "pump low boost scale psi" then add that number to the "boost scaling" and you have your map.

Wiretap will start at "pump low boost scale psi" and max out at "boost scaling" + "pump low boost scale psi."

 

For those needing to pour the fuel on the fire, "Pump low boost%" is used to dump extra fuel early. Although, I've found pouring too much fuel on the fire puts the fire out. 

@TFaoro I completely agree with you on the studs, I have to re set the valve lash anyway (I just R&R'd the rockers) so I want to re torque and re lash this weekend on Sunday. I want to drive it around and put a few heat cycles to it before re torque.  When I installed them I followed the following pattern religiously: 1 remove head bolt > Install stud > Hand Snug nut and washer, breaker bar 180*. do that 26X then Torque in 3 steps: 80 - 105 - 125 - 125 lbft.

 

As for the Low boost scaling, I thought that only set the initial wiretap %, Does it affect the entire scale?

[Me78569]

The pump lo wlimit % sets the min amount of wiretap allowed once pump low limit psi is reached.  IE if you set it at %25 then your wiretap starting point will be %25 of the map.   I can't imagine a setup needing more fuel than that off the line.  It does not change the entire scale just sets a low limit, I doubt you would honestly feel the difference if it did set the scale.  For me once I hit ~5psi I am at 30psi and at the top of the wiretap map anyways.

 

 

Now you can use boost scaling to say how fast you want wiretap to rampup, if you want it to ramp up normal set it at 40 psi, if you want it to ramp up 2 times faster set it at 20psi.  I would always suggest leaving boost scaling at 40 psi for anyone with bigger than stock injectors.  

 

You can also use the TPS pump min / max settings to compress the entire map to a throttle range.  

 

Then the low limit psi setting actually moves the entire map up and down based on boost.  

 

 

If you can explain a situtation where you would benifit from more wiretap map control I am all ears.  I am always willing to give something a go, but I need to understand what we are trying to accomplish.

 

 

 

 

[Quadzilla Power]

Hey Guys, I just wanted to give you a super secret ;) sneak preview of the app development. This is a screen shot taken from my phone a few minutes ago doing the custom tuning for the CAN bus fueling. This is a working version of the app. We are doing some final changes on this and then it should be updated pretty soon. 

 

[notlimah]

Damn! Looks like nice! I assume you can use each slider to set the tune exactly how you want?

 

and

 

If worse comes to worse you can always use it as a back up DJ sound mixer! I kid I kid!

[Carbur8tr]

3 hours ago, Quadzilla Power said:

Hey Guys, I just wanted to give you a super secret ;) sneak preview of the app development. This is a screen shot taken from my phone a few minutes ago doing the custom tuning for the CAN bus fueling. This is a working version of the app. We are doing some final changes on this and then it should be updated pretty soon. 

 

Do you have an ETA on when the update will be pushed?

[Carbur8tr]

Well the wife was with me today and I was able to get her to pull a few sets of data with the truck loaded.

 

@Me78569 I can't completely support this thought through the data which sucks because I was really hoping to get something good, but I believe that in some circumstances lower timing will actually reduce EGTs.  The problem is finding a spot where the timing was jumping a round a little and load as well as egts are somewhat level.  Very hard to catch and extremely hard to produce when driving.  If I had more time and less crappy weather I would try to pull the same hill twice with stock vs high timing to see what difference it would make but unfortunately we just didn't have the time today.

 

I tried comparing the load data but it's all a wash from that stand point.  Nothing consistent that I can see. With that said I was able to pull this out of the hat.

 

 

Very minor but you can almost pick out the little blimps in timing and how it pulls the egts down ever so slightly.  The tune is below

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just thought you might find some of this interesting.  Feel free to glaze over some of it.  More of just a data dump.

 

 

Stock PL0 data below

 

 

 

 

So the averages don't compare too much simply because of the speed.  On most of the other accounts though it's a pretty good comparison of what the truck is doing with timing while somewhat cruising with an extremely heavy load ~20k.  It's amazing how low it pulls the timing.  Seriously makes me wonder what the purpose of this was and what the engineers were thinking.  Maybe for more  of a protection thing who knows.

 

Fuel mileage was mixed but I pulled 13.4mpg out of this tank which is a lot better than I expected.

 

 

 

And overalls for the data I pulled that's above:

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Carbur8tr
Duplicate data.

[Me78569]

@Carbur8tr

I wish I could talk to the people who wrote the OEM tune because you are right, if revs are below 2k, and TPS is above ~25-30% then timing is normally less than 13*.  

 

As for timing pull vs egt's that will be a hard thing to catch on a log, there are just so many things that effect egt's that it will be hard to pinpoint to one variable.  I am sure if we had a dyno we could do that.  The nerdy part of me really wants to find out, but the logical part of me tells the nerd to shut up and don't worry about it hahah.  

 

 

If only I had my own Dyno.  

 

 

Good data overall.  I am keeping notes from your thoughts so I write this one down to so I can keep and eye on it.  

 

 

Question for you, why are you running a timing limit of 5*?  the OEM timing seems to max out around 24*, but it does it higher in the revs, were as your tune would max out around 20*.    I am assuming it is a "safe" tow tune?  Overall the tune looks like it is working well for you.  EGT's are well within check for such a heavy load. 

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Me78569

[Carbur8tr]

 More or less it's my "safe" tune. I find that the timing ramping much above 18-19 degrees while towing is messing with the smoothness of the tune plus I'll often end up holding gears with heavy stuff.  In the back of my head I know I'm probably fine but seeing 24 degrees for an extended period of time makes me nervous. Probably irrational but again it can be a bit rough depending on how quick the truck builds boost and how quick the timing comes up.

 

Also, the stretch for that tune caps at 110 so still working with adding fuel for a little more power and keeping the egts under 1200 while in it.  I can tell you that the power is awesome when you lay into it on hills. Truck will sit at 20-30lbs of boost and hammer through. 6th gear will still bog but in 5th I can usually accelerate up hills if I don't have to let off for some reason.

[Mopar1973Man]

I've learn something today. With temperatures at about -16*F in New Meadows, Idaho at about 12-1pm. I need to drop more timing. The manifold temp drops to barely 45-50*F and the timing is getting way to aggressive and killing the MPG number. I could just flip the MPG fooler on but I'm attempting to work solely with the Quadzilla Adrenaline and figure out how to keep optimal MPG numbers. 

[Me78569]

I am seeing that also.  A TON of timing gets added when iat is cold.  Been mulling that over.