No WTS light, Unable to start in 2nd.

[Cronus577]

I have a couple of issues with my 1999 24v that's been bugging me.
 

1. Lately it's been getting cold here in New Mexico and I noticed that my grid heater doesn't cycle until the engine has been started. The wait to start light never comes on anymore, not even for a split second, and my lift pump no longer does the 1-2 second prime before engine start. Is it a bad ECM?

2. My truck is a 5 speed nv4500, when I first picked it up I used to be able to take off from a dead stop in second gear just fine, plenty of torque to get it to move even starting on an incline. Now I have to start off in first gear slowly, it feels like it's hesitating/bogging down. I can't even think about second gear starts anymore. I'm not sure what it could be.

3. I just replaced my APPS sensor thinking the old one was the problem but I guess not, followed all directions as stated on the piece of paper I got from DAP. When I monitor the throttle % on my Edge monitor it'll only go up to 89% at WOT, I'm stumped on what it could be. I've cleaned all the contacts in the engine bay, replaced the alternator trying to make sure it's not any noise causing it to read but it's still only goes up to 89%.

My mods are: 1999 ram 2500 24v 5 speed w/351k miles, Edge Juice with Attitude, DAP 7x.009 SAC injectors, AFE Intake manifold, BD pulse manifold, Head studs, FASS 150, BHAF.

 

The truck doesn't throw any CEL's or codes scanning with the Edge. Any advice is appreciated

Edited November 23, 2016 by Cronus577

[dripley]

#1 All these are pretty good signs of ECM problems. Parts of it are failing.

#2 Could be your VP is failing also. Not sure on that. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge to monitor the lift pump pressure? Low fuel pressure is a VP killer. You have enough mods to need a good working system. Are your fuel filters clogged maybe?

#3 Have you ever reset the APPS sensor? Anytime you disconnect the batteries the APPS sensor needs to be reset. After reconnecting the batteries you turn the switch to the on position, engine not running, and depress the throttle slowly to the floor and release slowly, then turn the key off. All without starting the engine. This allows the ECM to learn 0 to wot. 

 

It would be a good idea to put a OBDII scanner on the truck and see what it says. 

 

 

 

[Cronus577]

I monitor everything from the Edge Juice With Attitude. My fuel pressure is 17-18PSI at idle 15-16 while cruising and 12-13 under WOT. I just replaced the fuel filters about 1000 miles ago and didn't change anything. As far as the VP goes, I'm not sure how many miles are on the VP44 but it'll idle fine when warm, a slight miss when cold. It'll pull hard with no hesitation steady up to 3250RPM, Haven't bounced off redline yet.

And I did reset the APPS sensor when I put the new one in. DAP suggests doing a key on/key off 3 times, the first time I noticed it went to 98%, the second time it went to 93% and the final key on went to 89% and it stays there now.

As far as the OBDII scammer goes, the EJWA can scan for codes and I'm not throwing any codes.

[dripley]

The reason I suggest the a code reader is to double check your EJWA. I have a San Gauge II and sometimes it does not pickup a code. My 02 will read codes with with a key on/off, key on/off, key on. It displays thru the odo. They do not always agree. I have never heard of the 3 key on/off for an APPS reset but Jacob is no dummy and he could know something I dont know for sure. What I described above is the only way I have ever done it.

 A VP can fail without codes, though it is rare but not unheard of. Loss of power is a symptom and also loss of fuel economy. How is your mileage? Do you run any fuel additive? Added lubricity to the fuel is quite good for the VP. I personally run TCW3 2 stroke oil. It is not the only thing out there that is good for that, just my choice. As far as mileage on the VP, I have read of them bad out of the box and others have many miles on them. Mine has 170k on it and some others here have more. So mileage is not necessarily an indicator. My OE failed at 75k.

[Hawkez]

I would agree with looking into the IP, except the WTS light doesn't seem to fit as a symptom of a failing VP44.  It would seem odd for an ECM to fail without codes. 

 

Since you changed your alternator, have you checked it for AC voltage?

[Me78569]

No WTS light is the dead sign for the ecm, but we have to remember that the Juice recieves info from the ecm directly.  So the ECM can't be %100 dead. 

 

No lift pump blip is another sign of the death of the ecm.  

 

 

Do a cluster test to verify that your WTS actually works. 

[dripley]

2 hours ago, Hawkez said:

I would agree with looking into the IP, except the WTS light doesn't seem to fit as a symptom of a failing VP44.  It would seem odd for an ECM to fail without codes. 

 

Since you changed your alternator, have you checked it for AC voltage?

You are right about the WTS. It is controlled thru the ECM and not the VP. When my ECM went it showed  no codes for the ECM. Plenty of other codes for almost every sensor in the truck, but mine was undriveable. The only time I got the 606 ECM code was when I installed the newly rebuilt one. Popped a 606 code when I connected it. I did not have the problems that @Cronus577 is having with WTS and lift pump. I have seen plenty folks here with the same issues with no codes for the ECM.

[Cronus577]

10 hours ago, dripley said:

The reason I suggest the a code reader is to double check your EJWA. I have a San Gauge II and sometimes it does not pickup a code. My 02 will read codes with with a key on/off, key on/off, key on. It displays thru the odo. They do not always agree. I have never heard of the 3 key on/off for an APPS reset but Jacob is no dummy and he could know something I dont know for sure. What I described above is the only way I have ever done it.

 A VP can fail without codes, though it is rare but not unheard of. Loss of power is a symptom and also loss of fuel economy. How is your mileage? Do you run any fuel additive? Added lubricity to the fuel is quite good for the VP. I personally run TCW3 2 stroke oil. It is not the only thing out there that is good for that, just my choice. As far as mileage on the VP, I have read of them bad out of the box and others have many miles on them. Mine has 170k on it and some others here have more. So mileage is not necessarily an indicator. My OE failed at 75k.

 

I can swing by my hobby shop on base and use their scanner. It's a Snapon Modis Ultra so it should be able to read all codes if there are any stored in the ECM. I can reset the apps and only do one throttle cycle and see if that changes anything. I've done that before in the past and it's always gone back to 89%. I use the Xtreme Diesel fuel additive on every fill up, I was wondering if the DAP injectors could cause the problem because when I first installed them the take off torque in second was good and didn't have a problem.. My fuel economy in cab reads 25-26 MPG highway but after doing the math on my 500 mile trip to San Antonio it came out to 18.9 highway. Never tried 2 stroke oil.

7 hours ago, Hawkez said:

I would agree with looking into the IP, except the WTS light doesn't seem to fit as a symptom of a failing VP44.  It would seem odd for an ECM to fail without codes. 

 

Since you changed your alternator, have you checked it for AC voltage?

 How could I look into the IP and diagnose it? It's just odd that the only lack of power is during take off while it's at idle.

And as far as AC voltage I haven't checked it except for reading what it's putting out on the dash and it's within the limits on the gauge and the EJWA reads 14.3V at idle

7 hours ago, Me78569 said:

No WTS light is the dead sign for the ecm, but we have to remember that the Juice recieves info from the ecm directly.  So the ECM can't be %100 dead. 

 

No lift pump blip is another sign of the death of the ecm.  

 

 

Do a cluster test to verify that your WTS actually works. 

That's what I read from other people, something about the memory getting full on the ECM. I'll have to check the bulb when I get time if that's what you're talking about. Another weird thing I noticed is that the Cruise light didn't come on for about 2 months and it just recently came on a week ago while I was driving to San Antonio about a week ago. Would that be another cause of the ECM dying? And what exactly is entailed when you say do a cluster test?

 

Another thing I had a few months ago was a trouble code that said something along the lines of the ECM and VP44 did not agree. I haven't had it in a while but when it happened the truck had a massive missfire

[dripley]

Since you are having ECM issues, malfunctioning cruise is another symptom, it is possible that the anti stall feature is not working. The ECM throttles up the engine when you let out the clutch to prevent stalling. It is possible that this part of the ECM has failed also. Not sure I have heard of that one before but I would think it is possible since you are only seeing this on launch.

 The AC voltage thing that @Hawkez brought up is a test to see how much AC voltage is present not DC. Your Edge will not read. It can be tested at a parts house but depending on the clerk the test can be iffy. You can check it yourself with a volt meter. There is an article here somewhere about the issue and the test. For some reason I can find it but will keep looking. 

 There also a way to test the bulb in the cluster. I believe it is in the factory service manual. You dont take anything apart, you just run a diagnostic. I have done on mine I just dont remember how. It is very simple as I remember. Maybe someone else knows and will speak up. 

[Cronus577]

4 hours ago, dripley said:

Since you are having ECM issues, malfunctioning cruise is another symptom, it is possible that the anti stall feature is not working. The ECM throttles up the engine when you let out the clutch to prevent stalling. It is possible that this part of the ECM has failed also. Not sure I have heard of that one before but I would think it is possible since you are only seeing this on launch.

 The AC voltage thing that @Hawkez brought up is a test to see how much AC voltage is present not DC. Your Edge will not read. It can be tested at a parts house but depending on the clerk the test can be iffy. You can check it yourself with a volt meter. There is an article here somewhere about the issue and the test. For some reason I can find it but will keep looking. 

 There also a way to test the bulb in the cluster. I believe it is in the factory service manual. You dont take anything apart, you just run a diagnostic. I have done on mine I just dont remember how. It is very simple as I remember. Maybe someone else knows and will speak up. 

How would the ECM detect this? My clutch safety switch hasn't been working for a while now so in order to start the truck i have to get underneath the dashboard and actually pull up on the switch. I'm not sure why it doesn't engage when I push in the clutch pedal. I noticed when I had to replace all the hydraulics for the clutch a little piece of foam fell out from behind the switch and it hasn't worked since. I've looked online for the part but I can't find it anywhere

[dripley]

The ECM detects the engine rpm dropping below idle and fuels the engine to keep it there. The harder you load it the harder it fuels. Mine will pull away at idle with the 5th wheel hooked up in first without touching the throttle.

 The clutch safety switch doesnt have anything to do with it. It is just there to keep the engine from starting while the clutch is engaged. I jumped mine out 8 or 9 years ago. Just twist the 2 wires together. Just be careful it will start in gear then. Did that with mine once while it was in reverse. Reached in the window and cranked and off she went. Or you can just buy another one.

 

http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/dodge,2002,ram+2500+pickup,5.9l+l6+diesel+turbocharged,1440064,electrical-switch+&+relay,clutch+pedal+position+/+starter+safety+switch,16665

Edited November 24, 2016 by dripley

[Cronus577]

More specifically I was talking about the piece of foam that's behind the clutch sensor but I might just twist the two wires together. I did the cluster test and the wait to start light never came on so i'll have to pull the cluster out and inspect the bulb soon. But not throwing a code and not having my lift pump prime on key on makes me think the ECM is about to die. Just have to find someone who has one around here and check it

[dripley]

 I don't remember a foam piece behind mine but I have only seen it once. Took it out and jumped the wires.

 The instances i have seem on the WTS light is that the truck wont start with out the light on. These folks had a delayed WTS and the engine would not fire off until it would illuminate. But you seem to have a few other strikes against the ECM. If you can borrow one to find out, thats the way to go. They are too pricey just throw at the problem. 

Please let us know how it works out. 

[Cronus577]

Got in the truck today and bumped the key just to see if it'll get the lift pump to prime, and it does not. it only starts when the engine fires. Will have to search around and find one someone will let me borrow and will report back. Sucks not having a grid heater and fuel prime during these 30 degree starts.

[dripley]

 Are the grids disconnected or just not working?

I disconnected mine due to one of the insulating caps on the intake had partially melted. Not sure why. Mine will start ok down to about 28 or so, below that i plug it in and it starts fine. It will start in the low twenty's but it is angry.

[Cronus577]

20 minutes ago, dripley said:

 Are the grids disconnected or just not working?

I disconnected mine due to one of the insulating caps on the intake had partially melted. Not sure why. Mine will start ok down to about 28 or so, below that i plug it in and it starts fine. It will start in the low twenty's but it is angry.

It'll work when the engine is started, but not when I cycle the key. 

[dripley]

Another strike against the ECM. Pretty sure the grids are ECM controlled also. Most of the situations I have read here with a delayed WTS involve all the items you are experiencing. Though for the most part all the things you are seeing usually start working when the WTS light finally illuminates. But your does not. That is a bit out of the norm but all still signs a failing ECM. I am not telling you to just drop the cash on an ECM if you have a route of borrowing one to test the theory. It would not have to be perfect match just to test the systems that are not functioning. 

 To help you when its cold, plug it in and it will start much easier. Spent last winter in western Tennessee  with family and had many cold nights up there, 20* and some lower,. I plugged it in on a timer and had it come on about 2 hours before leaving and it was always around 70* in the engine. Sure made starting an easy affair. Not to mention quick heat in the cab.

[Mopar1973Man]

@dripley is right you can swap another ECM for test run to see if the problem goes away. If so it proves the ECM is damaged. The WTS light issue is a sign of failing memory of the board and boot errors are occurring. Once it makes a good boot and the checksum matches then the first instruction is to light the WTS light and fire the grid heater if needed.

 

ECM memory is seen here the two matching chips which are two 256k memory chips. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

WTS light doesn't come on when he does a cluster test, I would guess the bulb is burnt out.,...Odd for an LED, but not impossible.

[Mopar1973Man]

6 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

WTS light doesn't come on when he does a cluster test, I would guess the bulb is burnt out.,...Odd for an LED, but not impossible.

 

 

There would be a P0381 error code if the bulb is burnt out.