Help stuck, failed steering gear and power steering pump

[WiscoRedkneck]

Ok, so long short I'm at a friend's right now so certain things are limited.

What happened- hit a deer at 50 top of hill ran it over lost control hit a tree stump and broke the steering gear.

Limped it back to camp caught a ride into town got parts returned and replaced gear. 

Bled system got it into town had it aligned, got cold hard steering at start up next day ran to store made it half way back when the truck started clunking from the power steering pump, pulled over and at idle the thing was shaking itself apart. Shut down towed back to friend's. 

Now we tear the thing apart and find the power steering pump failed and took out the vacuum pump the vacuum pump sent small shiny crap into oil I think metal oil lab will get drained oil when I get home for inspection.

So where we are at now is we have a new vacuum and power steering pump we have been trying to align the vacuum pump with the power steering pump attached to the timing gear and this thing just won't seat.

We have destroyed two gaskets and are down to our third and final shot before I have to abandon the truck for a little while. 

Whathave you guys found with past experience is the best way to align this thing? 

[Mopar1973Man]

9 minutes ago, WiscoRedkneck said:

Now we tear the thing apart and find the power steering pump failed and took out the vacuum pump the vacuum pump sent small shiny crap into oil

 

The biggest thing you need to flush all that out of the system if any of that debris plugs holes up in the steering box or hydrobooster it will cause all kinds of issues.

 

10 minutes ago, WiscoRedkneck said:

So where we are at now is we have a new vacuum and power steering pump we have been trying to align the vacuum pump with the power steering pump attached to the timing gear and this thing just won't seat.

 

I'd never do that. 

 

I would mount the vacuum pump. Then mount the power steering pump to the vacuum pump. Way too much weight and hose pulling the alignment of both device and making it impossible to install. 

[dripley]

I have only done it once when resealing the vacuum pump. I took the power steering pump loose from the vacuum pump and left it hanging and then removed the vacuum pump. Install was the reverse. Never tried it with both bolted together.

[WiscoRedkneck]

 Got it back together engine still knocking engine is done I think do I fix it or part it out.

Heading south without the truck don't know what to do with it yet, but I'm going to have to go and buy a replacement since we couldn't fix it

Edited March 6, 2018 by WiscoRedkneck

[Dieselfuture]

Well that sucks, sorry to hear that. Are you positive it's the engine and not ps or vac pump making it sound that way. Sometimes noises can travel and make things sound for what they are not. Maybe take serpentine belt off and start that again just to eliminate other things that spin. Do you think the debris from vacuum pump went through the engine and took a main bearing out. I kind of find it hard to believe, all that junk will have to go through oil filter first. Idk just thinking out loud here.

[Mopar1973Man]

I've heard of stories where people didn't get the power steering and vacuum pump lined up and creates knocking noise because either it breaks the vacuum pump or breaks the power steering pump coupling. 

[WiscoRedkneck]

@Dieselfuture I find it very hard to believe it's the engine but couldn't spend any more time with the truck.

What we know,

There was a bolt and bracket in the way preventing proper seating once removed it dropped right in.

We bled the system per books instructions, also cranked over engine with breaker bar and listened and felt for issues nothing to be found.

Drained engine oil filled with new replaced filter as well.

First start it started a rattling noise shut down checked fluids topped off both engine and  pump restart noise is a little quieter  and it changes/goes away under throttle shut down again.

Power steering fluid used was ATF+4 per auto store recommendation.

Fluid when I left the truck was foamy and the engine oil was clear Amber no shiny crap.

The metal came from the vacuum pump to power steering pump drive cog as well as the vacuum pump where the Piston was rubbing the power steering pump bracket/ vacuum pump tail shaft assembly.

I will be back by the truck in a few days to tow it home, I will get some pictures then, should help explain my discoveries

The one dumb thought that I'm having is I know the truck is due for injectors and was missing at idle very random and intermittent before this repair and I am wondering if an injector failed causing the knocking sound and the knocking was not actually from the power steering/vacuum pump yet the power steering and vacuum pump was still bad. The truck doesn't run smooth and blows alot of black gray smoke at start up.

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by WiscoRedkneck
Forgot something

[Mopar1973Man]

6 minutes ago, WiscoRedkneck said:

Power steering fluid used was ATF+4 per auto store recommendation.

 

Wrong fluid.  ATF+4 will cause seal issues. ATF+4 was only used on 2003 and up Dodge Ram trucks. This is because the steering box is a Ford Steering box. 

 

Power steering fluid. Sagnaw steering boxes need power steering fluid. 

[WiscoRedkneck]

Sounds good just got home and read my book and it says explicitly not to use ATF+4  I will start by removing ATF and flush. do you think it is it likely the ATF is foaming therefore causing the knocking, or did I damage the new parts?

Edited March 6, 2018 by WiscoRedkneck

[Mopar1973Man]

I would get that system flushed out. All the seals are not designed for ATF.

 

Again the ATF used in 2003 and up because Dodge started using Ford steering boxes. Every thing from 2002 and back is all power steering fluid.

 

Knocking I would pull the vacuum pump and power steering pump again and inspect everything from the gear to pump shaft.

[Junkman]

There are rebuild kits available for sealing the PS/Vac pumps.  There are also vids on youtube.  Peter Gould has some that go into detail.  The drive cog can be replaced.  I saw destructions in Peter's vid.

[WiscoRedkneck]

@Junkman I was not able to rebuild this pump due to the fact that a bearing failed causing the pumps piston to actually grind the head of the vacuum pump.  When you split the two halfs the one rear half that has the power steering pump mounting brackets on it was grooved and gouged.

At this point I towed the truck home and pushed it in the garage with the tractor drained the fluid out pulled the power steering and vacuum pump assembly back off.

The power steering pump suffered failure most likely due to incorrect fluid it has lots of slop in the drive cogs shaft. 

The vacuum pump appeared to be okay but was an earlier style pump nipple straight out the side versus having the manifold then nipple, even though they should interchange and have the same teeth count I exchanged that pump for the correct pump as well.

I have flushed the system to the best of my ability and it is no longer red in color it is amber.  Currently my problem is air trapped in the system I have tried everything going left right left right left right 40 times per the book instructions for bleeding.   I even tried pulling the pressure line off the pump and applying fluid pressure from a pressure bleeder to that and I'm still bubbling the fluid and the reservoir is not staying even fluid level wise. 

Still haven't started this truck since I brought it home and quite frankly I'm afraid to..... 

[IBMobile]

I can't remember exactly how long but It took two or three days for all the air to purge it self from the system and the noise to stop. 

[Junkman]

I just had my PS pump off and bleeding was easy as pie.  Unfortunately, there may still be a small leak somewhere power steering pump related - in one of the hoses or perhaps the reservoir where one of the lines connects.  There is an o-ring in the spring loaded connector (I think that goes to the pressure line - I'll look tomorrow).

 

The REALLY unfortunate thing is that there is lots of fluid by the driver side axle.  I just replaced both diff seals and the passenger side looks dry.  I only drove 2 mi to get an alignment & return.  I'm hoping it's a brake line or caliper leaking because the fluid felt like brake fluid.  The 2nd time is always easier but I'm getting tired of messing with this thing.  It's close to boat and bike riding season & the truck needs to be off my plate.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Junkman

[WiscoRedkneck]

So I started the truck and it foamed the fluid and started rattling right away. Shut off 40 to the left and right still rattling/ knocking don't know what else to do besides take it to a shop or get rid of it. Unless I have another bad pump which I doubt I even drove the thing foaming fluid no luck

Edited March 11, 2018 by WiscoRedkneck

[WiscoRedkneck]

Tried bleeding the system again this morning started it still rattling knocking and squeaking going to have it towed to a shop and see what they say unless someone else has an idea 

[Junkman]

Every time I get frustrated and want to hire a shop, I'm reminded that they are expensive, few are competent and none locally are competent and familiar with Cummins Rams, 80s era Mercedes diesels or 78 Datsuns.  I get stuck figuring it out which o always do - eventually.

 

Are you sure no metalfrom the first pump is causing problems?

 

There are only a few things in the system. You could replace all at less expense than having a shop diagnose and repair. Most shops are parts changers only.

 

Pull both pumps as a unit. Make sure they both turn together freely. Block the return ports and make sure they are leak free. Run a clear hose from the pressure port into the reservoir and make sure pump works and air bleeds. A cheap plastic line from a hardware store will suffice.

 

Something simple is,wrong and needs to be found.

[WiscoRedkneck]

I don't know if any metal is causing issues I know I changed the oil and it appears clean and free of metal.

I do know something else besides the pump is wrong though, my reason for thinking this is when I tried to start the truck this morning it was very difficult to start it was only 30f out so it should have started right away. I'm starting to wonder is it possible that I damaged the injection pump when the vacuum pump failed

[Junkman]

Hard start after sitting may be as simple as air in fuel system especially if you had the hard lines off. Could also be leak in the return line or T at the back of head or grids not working correctly.

 

I would scan it just because and in case there are codes.

 

This is becoming convoluted. Exactly what is the complaint causing it to not be reliably driveable?

[WiscoRedkneck]

It's knocking and squealing from the front drivers corner of the engine it's also running rough/ whole truck shakes. I brought it home on a flatbed Friday and currently since I'm so far behind schedule with work I own my own company that I rented another truck to work this week and try and figure out what I'm doing with this thing.