01 24v VP44 to VE Swap (info gathering)

[LegendaryKing]

Truck:

2001 1 ton Quad Cab 4x4 6 speed HO 24v 5.9 VP44 140k miles

So far the only mod is a Diamond Eye 4” stainless exhaust

 

Philosophy of use:

Truck is to be a safe and reliable daily driver.  Truck will also be used to tow a small camper short and long distances.  Reliability, fuel economy, and towing capability with low EGT’s are more important than a large dyno number.

 

Goal:

Reliable 24v in the 400-500hp range (Number is less important than a good running truck).

Removal of the VP44 for a more reliable system. (non negotiable)

 

Possible recipe:

Fuel Boss lift pump

VE Fuel Pump w/ dynamic timing

Unknown Injector (TBD)

BHAF

HE351VE with Arduino (open to other turbo recommendations but like the idea of a fast spooling VNT that can perform on the top end as well)

 

Questions:

Does the VE swap require a cam gear and timing case like the PPump?  Or is it just the VE gear and 1st gen cover?  (Basically a pump swap)

 

I have yet to see this swap on an 01-02 truck.  Are there any issues that I will see with this truck as opposed to older trucks?  I read something about crank sensors?h

 

Will the 1st gen cover simply bolt onto the 01-02 trucks?  No issues with harmonic balancer?

 

What are the differences in VE pumps?  I see recommendations are all over the place.  Intercooled? Non intercooled? 12mm? 14mm? Lift pump pressures?  What is right for my truck? Why?

 

Will the HE351VE w/ Arduino supply enough air for the low EGT/safe power I’m looking to make?

 

What injector should I run with that turbo/fuel pump?  What pop pressure should I run now that I’ll be running a VE pump instead of a VP?  Why?

 

THANKS!

 

[LegendaryKing]

After talking with Richard over at GDP I don't need to run the Cummins 12v in block fuel pump that runs off the cam, I can just use the Fuel Boss I already have or any electric pump that can supply the volume/pressure with an external regulator.  In fact, if I wanted to go P-Pump I could use the lift pump I already have (Fuel Boss).  This GREATLY reduces the amount of work I have to do and I'm super excited about this.  

[Me78569]

I know you say the vp44 removal is non negotiable, but why are you worried about the reliablity of a vp44? 

 

For the price of getting all of this together and swapped you could buy a spare vp44 and keep it in the cab just in case.  
 

 

so onto your questions. 

 

-the vgt is good to about 450 hp in a towing application 

-issues, you are going to have CELS related to the pump being removed.  I dont know if you have emissions but most of the time that is an automatic fail of the emissions test

 

What you need

-89-93 dodge ve pump preferably non intercooled
-89-93 dodge ve pump gear
-89-93 dodge timing cover
-89-93 dodge overflow valve

-custom injector lines or custom dv holders from 12mm to 14mm

 

-injector pop, I would think stock bar is fine, but you are going to lose duration.  Whats peak pressure on the VE 700ish bar?   compared the the 1200ish bar of the vp?  You prob want to drop pop down to ve specs. 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Me78569

[syndicateshop]

Been there and done that.....

The quadzilla and a Bosch reman vp44 is far more desirable to drive.

You need to have whatever injectors you decide to run popped to the VE pressure as well. Speaking from experience The only reason I'd go back to a VE pump is just to say I was running one. If your deadset on doing it I have a set of custom NONIC delivery valves setup to use stock vp44 injection lines. For some reason I can't post a pic of my 24v with a VE pump.

[Mopar1973Man]

18 hours ago, LegendaryKing said:

Goal:

Reliable 24v in the 400-500hp range (Number is less important than a good running truck).

Removal of the VP44 for a more reliable system. (non negotiable)

 

You going to lose a bunch in the VP44 removal. 

 

VP44 are VERY reliable. My last VP44 lasted 243k miles. (Currently on the clock 337k miles). My high mark MPG is 27.2 MPG. Something neither a P-pump or a VE pump will do. Now with the Quadzilla giving me full control of the timing and fueling of the VP44. Neither P-pump or VE pump can be electronically controlled and tuned. Since both the pump have limited timing you going to lose MPG's for sure. VE pump usage was ended because the pump couldn't produce enough fuel volume. This why the P-pump replaced it.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[jlbayes]

Tell that to all the 1st gen guys making 30mpg. He will not lose anything other than the ability to turn the power up or down quickly.

[syndicateshop]

5 minutes ago, jlbayes said:

Tell that to all the 1st gen guys making 30mpg. He will not lose anything other than the ability to turn the power up or down quickly.

I've messed extensively with a VE 24V and the BEST the BEST I ever got hand calculated was 28mpg.........

[jlbayes]

1 minute ago, syndicateshop said:

I've messed extensively with a VE 24V and the BEST the BEST I ever got hand calculated was 28mpg.........

 

I mean....really can't complain about that LOL

[Mopar1973Man]

34 minutes ago, jlbayes said:

Tell that to all the 1st gen guys making 30mpg.

 

That's a 1st gen engine, 12V cam, 12V heads, etc. It was designed that way. 

 

Kind of different. Apples to Oranges here. Now retrofitting a VE pump to 24V you have to take a lot into consideration. VE Pump is smaller than VP44 (less volume). Being able to time it correctly. etc. The list goes on. Might ditch the electronics but going to impose a whole new set of hurdles like future diagnostics... Not sure if he's in a Smog state or inspection state. This might pose another issue.

 

28 minutes ago, syndicateshop said:

I've messed extensively with a VE 24V and the BEST the BEST I ever got hand calculated was 28mpg

 

Impressive. Not any worse than my 27.2 MPG on a VP44. (Edge Comp, +50 HP injectors, and a BHAF - stock exhaust and intake)

 

[jlbayes]

This is a pump swap no different than a ppump swap. Not even looking at the check engine light issues that vary state to state.

[Mopar1973Man]

19 hours ago, LegendaryKing said:

Philosophy of use:

Truck is to be a safe and reliable daily driver.  Truck will also be used to tow a small camper short and long distances.  Reliability, fuel economy, and towing capability with low EGT’s are more important than a large dyno number.

 

Like myself, I clear 250 miles per day, 750 miles a week, 3,000 miles a month. This last year I've cleared 65,000 miles alone. I'll be towing my 31' foot Jayco RV here next month. Then towing my BigTex 70TV trailer for firewood. I live in an area where tow trucks and cell phone don't exits typically. VP44 pump is very reliable pump and can produce the same reliability as a VE pump.

 

Four things to look for.

 

1. AC noise excessive (Only 24V thing still applies to existing PCM, ECM, and remaining computers!)

2. Poor Fuel Filtration (This applies to both VE and VP44)

3. Poor fuel pressure (This applies to both VE and VP44 since both rely on fuel flow for cooling) 

4. Poor fuel lubricity (This applies to both since standards of fuel changed to 520 HFRR for lubricity score - Bosch requires <460 HFRR)

Edited March 19, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[LegendaryKing]

On 3/18/2018 at 8:43 PM, Me78569 said:

-the vgt is good to about 450 hp in a towing application 

-issues, you are going to have CELS related to the pump being removed.  I dont know if you have emissions but most of the time that is an automatic fail of the emissions test

 

What you need

-89-93 dodge ve pump preferably non intercooled
-89-93 dodge ve pump gear
-89-93 dodge timing cover
-89-93 dodge overflow valve

-custom injector lines or custom dv holders from 12mm to 14mm

 

-injector pop, I would think stock bar is fine, but you are going to lose duration.  Whats peak pressure on the VE 700ish bar?   compared the the 1200ish bar of the vp?  You prob want to drop pop down to ve specs. 

 

Thank you for the information.  I'm still trying to learn Cummins/Diesel vocabulary and I have a few questions.

1. Timing cover, is this just the face plate cover or is this the entire timing case?

2. Overflow valve, is this a fuel pressure regulator?  If so is a dodge specific "overflow valve" required or can I just use a regulator of my preference?

 

On 3/18/2018 at 9:16 PM, syndicateshop said:

Been there and done that.....

The quadzilla and a Bosch reman vp44 is far more desirable to drive.

You need to have whatever injectors you decide to run popped to the VE pressure as well. Speaking from experience The only reason I'd go back to a VE pump is just to say I was running one. If your deadset on doing it I have a set of custom NONIC delivery valves setup to use stock vp44 injection lines. For some reason I can't post a pic of my 24v with a VE pump.

 

Thank you for the reply from someone that has done the VP to VE 24v swap.  Why is the quadzilla and VP44 far more desirable to drive?

 

21 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

You going to lose a bunch in the VP44 removal. 

 

VP44 are VERY reliable. My last VP44 lasted 243k miles. (Currently on the clock 337k miles). My high mark MPG is 27.2 MPG. Something neither a P-pump or a VE pump will do. Now with the Quadzilla giving me full control of the timing and fueling of the VP44. Neither P-pump or VE pump can be electronically controlled and tuned. Since both the pump have limited timing you going to lose MPG's for sure. VE pump usage was ended because the pump couldn't produce enough fuel volume. This why the P-pump replaced it.

 

What am I going to lose in the VP44 removal?

If a VE pump can provide the fuel requirements I need to make the power I want, why would I need more volume?

 

20 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Like myself, I clear 250 miles per day, 750 miles a week, 3,000 miles a month. This last year I've cleared 65,000 miles alone. I'll be towing my 31' foot Jayco RV here next month. Then towing my BigTex 70TV trailer for firewood. I live in an area where tow trucks and cell phone don't exits typically. VP44 pump is very reliable pump and can produce the same reliability as a VE pump.

 

Four things to look for.

 

1. AC noise excessive (Only 24V thing still applies to existing PCM, ECM, and remaining computers!)

2. Poor Fuel Filtration (This applies to both VE and VP44)

3. Poor fuel pressure (This applies to both VE and VP44 since both rely on fuel flow for cooling) 

4. Poor fuel lubricity (This applies to both since standards of fuel changed to 520 HFRR for lubricity score - Bosch requires <460 HFRR)

 

This is the first I have heard of a VP equaling the reliability of a VE.  I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying this is the first I have heard of it.  Is there any more information out there confirming this new information?  Thanks!

[Mopar1973Man]

3 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

What am I going to lose in the VP44 removal?

 

MPG is still possible. Just depends on how diligent you going to be about it.

Diagnostics will never be there for injector pump failure. Yes, VE pumps do wear out just like VP44 just they don't trip any light or give warnings. 

Tuning with all the advancements in tuning you giving up a big part of being able to tune without getting your hands dirty or having to buy special tools for timing that VE pump. 

 

5 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

This is the first I have heard of a VP equaling the reliability of a VE.  I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying this is the first I have heard of it.  Is there any more information out there confirming this new information?

 

So I gather you've been pumped up with all the VP44 horror stories of they giving up and leaving you stuck on the side of the road randomly. I made it point YEARS AGO to debunk that mind set I'm one of the few that made close to 1/4 of a million miles. So thing like my 2 cycle oil theory that has saved many VP44. Then my Alternator AC noise theory that is saving tons of ECM, PCM and VP44. The 3rd Gen crowd can be thanked for filtration information which saves on the wear of the pump. Fuel pressure has been another group thing where we tossed out the FSM and set our own standard of 14-20 PSI instead of 10 PSI minimum of Dodge. 

 

Which now sprung off more study on the electrical system and mainly the ground lines for the computers...

 

As for my VP44 replacement. After putting 243k miles on the pump. Pulling 27.2 MPG in its life time. 

 

19 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

Thank you for the information.  I'm still trying to learn Cummins/Diesel vocabulary and I have a few questions.

1. Timing cover, is this just the face plate cover or is this the entire timing case?

2. Overflow valve, is this a fuel pressure regulator?  If so is a dodge specific "overflow valve" required or can I just use a regulator of my preference?

 

As for this project gear case wise you need to replace the entire gear case. Problem is you need to pull the cam out to change the gear case. This is also going to pose another problem like you tach signal is from the cam sensor which will no longer be present in the VE gear case. Again another good reason not to go down this road. Unless you got the time to customize electrical and other things just to make it work. If you have fly by wire cruise control you will lose your cruise control as well. 

[syndicateshop]

30 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

 

Thank you for the reply from someone that has done the VP to VE 24v swap.  Why is the quadzilla and VP44 far more desirable to drive?

With the VE I was stuck at one power level. I'm not saying it didn't have power but being able to tailor my power level to driving conditions as well. I can dial it back if needed. When I built my last truck I kept the VP44 and have had zero issues with it. Keep the fuel pressure above 12psi and get a fuel pressure gauge to keep an eye on it....

[dripley]

I currently have 220k on my pump. I fed it a steady diet of 2 cycle it's whole lifer and good fuel pressure also. She might blow tomorrow, who knows. It has lasted longer than the 2 that proceeded it together.

[jlbayes]

51 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

 

Thank you for the information.  I'm still trying to learn Cummins/Diesel vocabulary and I have a few questions.

1. Timing cover, is this just the face plate cover or is this the entire timing case?

2. Overflow valve, is this a fuel pressure regulator?  If so is a dodge specific "overflow valve" required or can I just use a regulator of my preference?

 

1. Timing case is what you need (cast aluminum case to bolt the ve to). You may need the cover but I believe they are the same bolt pattern as the ppump cover and vp cover.

2. Yes, is a fancy name for a check valve.

[LegendaryKing]

First,

 

I want to thank everyone in this thread, the knowledge sharing is GREATLY appreciated.  Next I'm going to ask more n00b questions so please bare with me. 

 

On 3/20/2018 at 8:46 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

 

MPG is still possible. Just depends on how diligent you going to be about it.

Diagnostics will never be there for injector pump failure. Yes, VE pumps do wear out just like VP44 just they don't trip any light or give warnings. 

Tuning with all the advancements in tuning you giving up a big part of being able to tune without getting your hands dirty or having to buy special tools for timing that VE pump. 

 

 

So I gather you've been pumped up with all the VP44 horror stories of they giving up and leaving you stuck on the side of the road randomly. I made it point YEARS AGO to debunk that mind set I'm one of the few that made close to 1/4 of a million miles. So thing like my 2 cycle oil theory that has saved many VP44. Then my Alternator AC noise theory that is saving tons of ECM, PCM and VP44. The 3rd Gen crowd can be thanked for filtration information which saves on the wear of the pump. Fuel pressure has been another group thing where we tossed out the FSM and set our own standard of 14-20 PSI instead of 10 PSI minimum of Dodge. 

 

Which now sprung off more study on the electrical system and mainly the ground lines for the computers...

 

As for my VP44 replacement. After putting 243k miles on the pump. Pulling 27.2 MPG in its life time. 

 

 

As for this project gear case wise you need to replace the entire gear case. Problem is you need to pull the cam out to change the gear case. This is also going to pose another problem like you tach signal is from the cam sensor which will no longer be present in the VE gear case. Again another good reason not to go down this road. Unless you got the time to customize electrical and other things just to make it work. If you have fly by wire cruise control you will lose your cruise control as well. 

 

So, fuel economy approx equal to VP44 is achievable, so there is no advantage to the VP44 there.

I will lose diagnostics, however I believe the diagnostics of the VP44 are strictly related to how the electronics in the pump are performing, now how well the pump is performing.  Is that correct?

 

You are 100% correct, the horror stories have me worried about being on the side of the road in the middle of know where with a truck full of kids and our trailer. 

 

Thanks for the articles, all of those will be implemented.  I currently run 2 cycle and notice a difference.  The electrical system will be upgraded substantially. 

 

I'm curious about "filtration".  I have read in numerous places that the 01/02 fuel filter can't be beat.  Is there contrary information to this?

 

How do I find out which cruise control I have?  A shop that replaced the ABS unit knocked off a vacuum line and I lost cruise control.  Does that help identify which I have?  

 

On 3/20/2018 at 9:04 AM, syndicateshop said:

With the VE I was stuck at one power level. I'm not saying it didn't have power but being able to tailor my power level to driving conditions as well. I can dial it back if needed. When I built my last truck I kept the VP44 and have had zero issues with it. Keep the fuel pressure above 12psi and get a fuel pressure gauge to keep an eye on it....

 

So the only advantage to a VP44 is the ability to electronically tune and raise and lower hp with the touch of a button.  Is there something I'm missing about raising and lowering the power level?  Why is this desirable?  This is not a "smart ***" question, I genuinely don't know if there is something I'm missing.  I appreciate the response! 

 

On 3/20/2018 at 9:13 AM, dripley said:

I currently have 220k on my pump. I fed it a steady diet of 2 cycle it's whole lifer and good fuel pressure also. She might blow tomorrow, who knows. It has lasted longer than the 2 that proceeded it together.

 

Good to know.  Thanks!

 

On 3/20/2018 at 9:22 AM, jlbayes said:

 

1. Timing case is what you need (cast aluminum case to bolt the ve to). You may need the cover but I believe they are the same bolt pattern as the ppump cover and vp cover.

2. Yes, is a fancy name for a check valve.

 

Good to know.  Thanks!

 

Again, I appreciate the insight you guys are providing!

 

[Me78569]

I never changed power levels, I just left it where I liked it.   

 

The big thing is the cost for the conversion.  Like I said above, for the money you are going to spend to do this, you can just buy a spare vp and leave it in the truck for the day when the one under the hood dies. Betting it will be cheaper to just buy a spare vp honestly.  

 

Time = money. and it doesn't take much time to eat up a lot of money.

 

 

you never really answered if you have to deal with yearly emissions, but here the CEL would be an auto fail.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Me78569

[LegendaryKing]

8 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

I never changed power levels, I just left it where I liked it.   

 

The big thing is the cost for the conversion.  Like I said above, for the money you are going to spend to do this, you can just buy a spare vp and leave it in the truck for the day when the one under the hood dies. Betting it will be cheaper to just buy a spare vp honestly.  

 

Time = money. and it doesn't take much time to eat up a lot of money.

 

 

you never really answered if you have to deal with yearly emissions, but here the CEL would be an auto fail.

 

No emissions for diesel trucks here. 

[dripley]

2 hours ago, LegendaryKing said:

 

You are 100% correct, the horror stories have me worried about being on the side of the road in the middle of know where with a truck full of kids and our trailer.

There are other things that can do the same to you. Not just the VP. Hard to carry a spare anything.

 

2 hours ago, LegendaryKing said:

I'm curious about "filtration".  I have read in numerous places that the 01/02 fuel filter can't be beat.  Is there contrary information to this?

The stock filter is supposed to be very good, but I for one opted for more with the AD as many others have. Kind of a personal preference.

 

2 hours ago, LegendaryKing said:

 

How do I find out which cruise control I have?  A shop that replaced the ABS unit knocked off a vacuum line and I lost cruise control.  Does that help identify which I have? 

You do NOT have fly by wire like my 02. Yours is vacuum controlled.

 

2 hours ago, LegendaryKing said:

 

No emissions for diesel trucks here. 

Here in NC we have no emissions on the 2nd gens, but a lit CEL will fail inspections.

 

 

I am at the present working in Bowie MD and will be for the next 2 or 3 months. Maybe a get together is in order.