Choosing the right turbo

[mopar440cu]

Let me approach this subject a different way.

 

I am looking for a different turbo for one of my 01 3500's and would like to know if there is any math or formula to help you make this choice? I know you have to try to match the air to fuel ratio, but thats it. I have BD's 110 injectors in this particular 3500 with a stock turbo and she always has a 16' company trailer attached to it with aluminum extrusion and ladders on it. I am just wanting a little more lower and a little lower EGT's without changing injectors of course. My other mods on the truck are basically the same for this one that is in my Sig below. If you need ,more info let me know and I will gladly post it.

Thanks for any input!

Steve

[Mopar1973Man]

Basically most chose a turbo based on the map data provided by the turbo which is the usable range of the turbo. What turbo do you have now and how much boost are your making? 

 

What catches my eyes is the TST / Smarty Stack. This might be part of the EGT problem and lack of fuel and timing control. I know the Smarty provides timing but you can't set the timing for your particular needs. Then fuel is by both units but again no control of the fuel for your particular conditions. 

[trreed]

The math is looking at the fueling capabilities of the truck vs. what EGTs you are seeing, the amount of boost you are seeing (used to calculate pressure ratios), the weight that you are towing, and what your preference is for spooling.  And then things like your 4.30 gears will factor into the equation in that you still might have EGT issues due to the rpms you will be turning on the highway.  In your other post you asked about a 63/70/12 turbo.  Doesn't make sense how II got those measurements because SXE turbos are offered with 68mm or 73mm turbines.   But if you sourced a 63/68/12, you would have enough air and fuel for ~500hp.

[mopar440cu]

18 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Basically most chose a turbo based on the map data provided by the turbo which is the usable range of the turbo. What turbo do you have now and how much boost are your making? 

 

What catches my eyes is the TST / Smarty Stack. This might be part of the EGT problem and lack of fuel and timing control. I know the Smarty provides timing but you can't set the timing for your particular needs. Then fuel is by both units but again no control of the fuel for your particular conditions. 

Its a stock HX35 I think on that one. Its not here at this moment to check, but I am sure it is The boost now goes up to 35-40 range. 

As for the stack I have the Smarty always on level 2 for low end torque and the TST set at 2 for upper end. I tried all combos, like disconnecting one then another to see which is better for towing. This is the right ticket for it with the 4:30 gearing. I also played with levels and still this is where it should be. With it on level 3 it gets a little too hot for me. I mean not extremely hot, but in the range under 1800 EGT's with a heavier load. I am just wanting the lag out of it and everyone is telling me the stock turbo is not enough with these 110 sticks. I know I could get twins, but not at this time. SO, its got to be a single turbo that would help with lag, a little lower EGT's and  accompany a future twin setup. Make sense?

[trreed]

See above.

[mopar440cu]

1 minute ago, trreed said:

The math is looking at the fueling capabilities of the truck vs. what EGTs you are seeing, the amount of boost you are seeing (used to calculate pressure ratios), the weight that you are towing, and what your preference is for spooling.  And then things like your 4.30 gears will factor into the equation in that you still might have EGT issues due to the rpms you will be turning on the highway.  In your other post you asked about a 63/70/12 turbo.  Doesn't make sense how II got those measurements because SXE turbos are offered with 68mm or 73mm turbines.   But if you sourced a 63/68/12, you would have enough air and fuel for ~500hp.

I wrote to Industrial and they recommended the Viper 63/70/12, which would help me gain more power and lower EGT's. I was looking for people that might be running one to ask thier opinion's. I also like the Boxer turbo they have also, but are still looking for info and opinions.

[trreed]

I have a 62/68/12.  Similar to the 63mm.  I loved it as a single.  But there is no option for a 70mm turbine in those turbos.  The boxer turbo is a 57/65/14, and will have minimal gains and slower spool times over your stock HY35.

Edited April 25, 2018 by trreed

[Mopar1973Man]

I still feel part of the problem is lack of control of fueling and timing. Smarty is not giving the timing you need for 110 HP injectors which should be advanced even more on the top end. The bottom end should be retarded some to allow for building of boost. The problem is Smarty is designed for stock injectors so the timing map is totally wrong. 

 

Then your using both TST and Smarty for a fueling map and again both boxes are design on stock injectors where you fueling most likely too heavy because neither box is designed for 110 HP injectors.

 

I've got 75 HP injectors (7 x 0.0085) with an HX35/40 Hybrid (60/60/12) and can control my EGT's fairly well. I'm going to step up to (7 x 0.009) injectors soon and push the pop pressure up to 315-320 bar to clean them up. As for my current tune I start out defueled with limit of 80% fuel which I don't cross 100% till 10 PSI of boost. My starting timing I'm at 13 degrees in the 1,500 RPM which gives my all the spool I need after that I step up to 17 degrees at 2,000 RPM and +3 degree of cruise timing giving me 20 degrees at cruising state. 

 

Again none of this tuning can be done with your current stack and both boxes are not designed for anything more than stock. Kind like why I've got a Smarty touch sitting on my desk but I can't use it till I can get a Windows PC to redo the tune to fit my injector and timing requirements. 

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[mopar440cu]

1 minute ago, trreed said:

I have a 62/68/12.  Similar to the 63mm.  I loved it as a single.  But there is no option for a 70mm turbine in those turbos.  The boxer turbo is a 57/65/14, and will have minimal gains and slower spool times over your stock HY35.

I just sent an email to them to make double sure that they did not misprint the 63/70/12 viper. I will post what they say.

 

2 minutes ago, trreed said:

I have a 62/68/12.  Similar to the 63mm.  I loved it as a single.  But there is no option for a 70mm turbine in those turbos.  The boxer turbo is a 57/65/14, and will have minimal gains and slower spool times over your stock HY35.

What brand or made your 62/68/12? I am looking for one that can also be added to twins later in the future.

4 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I still feel part of the problem is lack of control of fueling and timing. Smarty is not giving the timing you need for 110 HP injectors which should be advanced even more on the top end. The bottom end should be retarded some to allow for building of boost. The problem is Smarty is designed for stock injectors so the timing map is totally wrong. 

 

Then your using both TST and Smarty for a fueling map and again both boxes are design on stock injectors where you fueling most likely too heavy because neither box is designed for 110 HP injectors.

 

I've got 75 HP injectors (7 x 0.0085) with an HX35/40 Hybrid (60/60/12) and can control my EGT's fairly well. I'm going to step up to (7 x 0.009) injectors soon and push the pop pressure up to 315-320 bar to clean them up. As for my current tune I start out defueled with limit of 80% fuel which I don't cross 100% till 10 PSI of boost. My starting timing I'm at 13 degrees in the 1,500 RPM which gives my all the spool I need after that I step up to 17 degrees at 2,000 RPM and +3 degree of cruise timing giving me 20 degrees at cruising state. 

 

Again none of this tuning can be done with your current stack and both boxes are not designed for anything more than stock. Kind like why I've got a Smarty touch sitting on my desk but I can use it till I can get a Windows PC to redo the tune to fit my injector and timing requirements. 

 

Make sense, but why do they tell people its good with bigger sticks?? LOL So, would you suggest a different box? If thats the case which one? Thanks!!

[trreed]

It's a Borg Warner 62mm.  The Viper line will also be Borg based turbos.  I did add mine to compounds.  Works fantastically.  

Smarty says the S-03 works well with larger injectors because their tuning causes timing to max at 18.02* within 30% pedal travel on level 9.  More timing earlier helps with smoke, but is hard on head gaskets.  The box of choice around here is the Quadzilla Adrenaline, as it allows you to set your own fueling and timing curves to maximize power and efficiency.

[Me78569]

I dunno if you are going to gain low end with a bigger turbo.  Are you flooding the turbo down low causing lag?   

 

What rpm are you seeing boost come on?   Have you checked for boost leaks?  

 

The smarty on lvl2 is giving you stock timing, which is not helping your egts up top.  More timing would drop your temps a good bit.

as to what turbo I would figure out what you have now, a 01 3500 should have a hy35 which runs out of air after ~32 psi.  above that and egt's are going to spike.  

What is your hp goal?    that really defines what turbo you go for. with only 110's I would guess a hx35 would work well with some better tuning.  a 57 drop in would work well too, but the cost is significant compared to a hx35.

[Mopar1973Man]

The only two choices you've got that give you tune capability is Smarty Touch UDC (60 HP) or Quadzilla Adrenaline (180 HP). I ended up with the smarty touch to attempt to up them build articles for there website. My problem is I don't own a Windows PC and the software doesn't work in VirtualBox so I'm not capable of making tunes yet for Smarty. As for the Quadzilla you just need a mobile device and build your tune right there on your cellphone or tablet no PC required (except to flash firmware updates). 

 

As for me its taken me quite awhile to get a grasp of how timing and fuel control work. In a nutshell more fuel more timing is required to go from an atomized spray, heat to vapor, to BANG. This also changes with IAT temperature and cetane level of the fuel. Like all winter I was running a cruise timing of barely 18 degrees because of the excessive cetane in the local fuel which still gave me 20-21 MPG on the bit cold days. Now cetane is down, IAT is coming up, I'm adding 2 cycle oil more (cetane down a bit more), then cranking up the timing more. Hence my 20 degree cruise timing now. Still floating 19-20 MPG. Still want to aim higher on the MPG numbers, and I will!

 

I know as timing is advance more of the fire is in the cylinder and EGT's and boost fall. You'll notice more coolant temperature and lower engine load when optimal. Fueling wise you need to find out how much fuel you need to spin the turbo on CANBus alone. Then you can add the wiretap in a control state. Like I've got 1,200 to 2,200us worth of wiretap pulse to play with I'm only using 1,400us second right now and it only slightly smoky when I jump on the throttle. 

 

Again none of this is possible with a canned tune like Smarty or TST. That was a limitation of the past. No longer...

[mopar440cu]

5 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

The only two choices you've got that give you tune capability is Smarty Touch UDC (60 HP) or Quadzilla Adrenaline (180 HP). I ended up with the smarty touch to attempt to up them build articles for there website. My problem is I don't own a Windows PC and the software doesn't work in VirtualBox so I'm not capable of making tunes yet for Smarty. As for the Quadzilla you just need a mobile device and build your tune right there on your cellphone or tablet no PC required (except to flash firmware updates). 

 

As for me its taken me quite awhile to get a grasp of how timing and fuel control work. In a nutshell more fuel more timing is required to go from an atomized spray, heat to vapor, to BANG. This also changes with IAT temperature and cetane level of the fuel. Like all winter I was running a cruise timing of barely 18 degrees because of the excessive cetane in the local fuel which still gave me 20-21 MPG on the bit cold days. Now cetane is down, IAT is coming up, I'm adding 2 cycle oil more (cetane down a bit more), then cranking up the timing more. Hence my 20 degree cruise timing now. Still floating 19-20 MPG. Still want to aim higher on the MPG numbers, and I will!

 

I know as timing is advance more of the fire is in the cylinder and EGT's and boost fall. You'll notice more coolant temperature and lower engine load when optimal. Fueling wise you need to find out how much fuel you need to spin the turbo on CANBus alone. Then you can add the wiretap in a control state. Like I've got 1,200 to 2,200us worth of wiretap pulse to play with I'm only using 1,400us second right now and it only slightly smoky when I jump on the throttle. 

 

Again none of this is possible with a canned tune like Smarty or TST. That was a limitation of the past. No longer...

Cool explains alot. Thank you! So I am going to look up both Smarty UDC and the Adrenaline on line. 

[Mopar1973Man]

5 minutes ago, mopar440cu said:

So I am going to look up both Smarty UDC and the Adrenaline on line. 

 

Quadzilla Adrenaline you end up back here for most of the technical stuff. Between @Me78569 and @Quadzilla Power you get all your answers.

 

As for Smarty resource UDC you end up over here... (Talk to Brian)

 https://smartyresource.com/forums/

[mopar440cu]

1 minute ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Quadzilla Adrenaline you end up back here for most of the technical stuff. Between @Me78569 and @Quadzilla Power you get all your answers.

 

As for Smarty resource UDC you end up over here... (Talk to Brian)

 https://smartyresource.com/forums/

So correct me if I am wrong. Once I purchase one of these I have to have a tune custom made, like the rest of my friends have on their 3rd gens by someone?

[Me78569]

With the smarty you will have to have one made unless you tune it yourself.   

 

With the quad you do it yourself as it is much easier to figure out.

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, mopar440cu said:

Once I purchase one of these I have to have a tune custom made, like the rest of my friends have on their 3rd gens by someone?

 

Smarty UDC Yes... With Smarty typically tunes come at a price. I've heard some can charge as much as $300. (Heresay... Down the grapevine)

 

Quadzilla No... You can start out with some the of the tune in the download area. All the tunes are free.

https://mopar1973man.com/files/category/22-quadzilla-standard-tunes/

 

 

 

[mopar440cu]

1 minute ago, Me78569 said:

With the smarty you will have to have one made unless you tune it yourself.   

 

With the quad you do it yourself as it is much easier to figure out.

LOL you say its easier, but it seems everything I done on all my Dodges was not easy and expensive. Can a average Joe tune a 01 diesel with Adren?

[Me78569]

Yes you can.  If you dont want to you can just download one of the 30 in the link Mike posted.

[Mopar1973Man]

Just now, mopar440cu said:

Can a average Joe tune a 01 diesel with Adren?

 

Yes. Like I said you can start with a tune that fits close and then tweak it to fit your needs. We'll be glad to help you out on tuning and give you some guidance.