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Dieselfuture

Top hat valve seal and valve train

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So I'm in process of figuring out why some of my seals are tore/smashed. Finding out that new style seals 03 and up may work on our 2nd gen. They are held in place by spring and can't come up from too much boost etc. I've spoken with https://ussealparts.com and they have both styles at great prices, although top hat style is listed for 03 and newer. The difference I believe is in ID where it slides over guide, sounds like top hat is slightly bigger but that should not affect the sealing capabilities as valve still same diameter. I ordered both styles and let ya all know. Now this place advertising them as they do fit.  https://puredieselpower.com/dodge-products/dodge-6b-cummins-intake-valve-seal-exhaust-valve-seal-set-b45962-b45963.html#/product/21380 

 

Another thing I might be doing is upgrading to better push rods, springs, trunion bearings and roker arm bridges from Manton. That may explain my ovaled guides and smashed seals, or so I hope.

Let me know your thoughts :cheers:

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Funny this thread should start. I'm getting geared up for doing valve seals here really soon. I've got the spring compressor and the seals. I just need to get my 1/2 ton up and running with fresh tires and then I can condemn the Cummins for a week or so to get the valve seals done. 

 

In the mean time, I'm still listening to Helicopters buzzing back and forth over the house. 

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I'm now finding out that top hat need a lip removed from the head to sit down properly :ahhh: I might be using a dremel here :stirthepot: because no way I waiting on new seals to pop out again. I have to wait and see what they look like first.

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8 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Hua? :think:

Yes apparently it's a common issue for some to have new seals work their way up and get hammered by retainers. I wonder if they can be glued in place

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Don't know. I'm on virgin ground learning how to do valve seals now. I just know I got to keep more oil in the pan and less from leaking out into the cylinder or on the ground. I know ultimately it would be best to rebuild the engine but I just gotta keep this old beast rolling. 

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@04Mach1 do you have any input on seals and why they work up from being pressed down and get hammered by retainers. Have you dealt with both styles, top hat and regular. 

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Very interested, my exhaust seals are the only ones I have to keep replacing. I just chaulked it up to twins. But I also got the top hat ones and was told about the lip, so I'm looking for an 03 head. But will wait to hear from this thread.

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1 hour ago, Dieselfuture said:

@04Mach1 do you have any input on seals and why they work up from being pressed down and get hammered by retainers. Have you dealt with both styles, top hat and regular. 

Are we talking the valve stem seal walking off the valve guide boss?

 

If so I've only seen it a few times on SBC engines but figured the seals may have been sticking to the valve stem. Haven't personally seen it happen on a Cummins. If it were my engine I would go with a top hat style positive valve stem seal since it seems like the valve spring would hold the seal down. 

 

Just a note... It is normal and actually good to have a small amount of oil seep through the valve seals so the valve guides are lubricated and have a long life. If you just see the stems wet inside the ports it is normal and doesn't produce any smoke. If oil is pooling on top of the valve head which does produce smoke means it is time for new seals. 

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Before climate change and emissions most big diesel valve stem seals were basically flat rubber discs that deflected most of the oil that comes from rocker and rocker tip lubrication away from the stem, the stem used to require some lubrication, I'd think now valve stem and guide material is improved to allow for reduced oil and higher temps, even engines with a positive retained seal would mostly pop the seals off the stems after a few thousand hours due to the rubber material going brittle

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6 hours ago, 04Mach1 said:

Are we talking the valve stem seal walking off the valve guide boss?

I think we're on same page, yes some of my exhaust seals walked up 1/8" from being pressed to bottom of guide. last summer I had new sleeves put in inside valve guides as some of mine were ovaled out. From what I understand coming from (Manton tech) he said it could of been caused by bridges flexing, so I might be getting new bridges, trunions, pushrods, valve springs to stiffen things up. He said it becomes important when turning more rpm and using more boost (especially when towing heavy), because everthing is vibrating from frequencies and etc. I know I probably don't need this extreme duty stuff, but I also don't want to wish later that I should of done it. My trunions are getting galled up and so are rockers according to him it's because they are made from same material and also missing an oil gally in a critical spot, newer models started to put that galley in to minimize this problem, some people cut their own grooves. Push rods he recommended 1/2" as he said bigger the better keeps them from flexing, I know 7/16 is plenty big but why not. The springs they use are conical shape so that at full compression it's not over presurising cam/tappet where he stated quite a few sellers have way to much pressure when spring is pushed down and chewing up cams. Here is their website. 

http://mantonpushrods.com

 

Sorry for the rant, seems like it never ends with us gearheads just when you think you got something you have to renovate again.

I guess biggest issue at this point is seals that are getting destroyed, then everything else. 

9 hours ago, mossyoak71 said:

Very interested, my exhaust seals are the only ones I have to keep replacing. I just chaulked it up to twins. But I also got the top hat ones and was told about the lip, so I'm looking for an 03 head. But will wait to hear from this thread.

Are you using top hat without machining the lip of the head? And how do yours fail, get tore or wear out.

I hope this thread gets someplace lol.

2 hours ago, wil440 said:

Before climate change and emissions most big diesel valve stem seals were basically flat rubber discs that deflected most of the oil that comes from rocker and rocker tip lubrication away from the stem, the stem used to require some lubrication, I'd think now valve stem and guide material is improved to allow for reduced oil and higher temps, even engines with a positive retained seal would mostly pop the seals off the stems after a few thousand hours due to the rubber material going brittle

I was thinking of using umbrella type seals like on older trucks, but I think oil puddles up to much where seal is and may be making down the stem to easy. I'm in a brain storming mode right now lol. Still think the solution is to machine the lip off and use top hat seals. Or talk with seal manufacturer and see if they can be nice to us 2nd gen guys and make a top hat that fits over the lip. I like this idea better. 

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Also it will usually be exhaust valve seals due to heat, very rare for intakes to lift up or get brittle, I've also never seen a valve stem seal retained by the valve spring, although if a seal hat a steel flange I suppose it could sit underneath a spring shim if there was a recess for it to sit in, also the springs can't be a tight fit over the seal as that would destroy the seal very quickly due to movement and resonance I'd say well I've never seen that, there are only 2 ways and 2 types as far as I know, umbrella/flat disc or pushed over the guide, the best solution would be a seal that does go over the lip with a spring retainer that is below the lip, now that would take some pulling off, seals would still fail though due to temps.

PS hows the quote function work....... I can build a Cat C32 diesel easy...... quote function has had me at it

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Quote function there are 3 ways.

 

1. Just hit the quote button on the post you want to quote.

2. Select the text you want to quote. Pause a second there should be a "Quote Selection" balloon show up. Click on it.

3. Hit the " (Quote tool) and it will create an empty quote box which you can copy and paste text into.

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1 hour ago, Dieselfuture said:

I was thinking of using umbrella type seals like on older trucks, but I think oil puddles up to much where seal is and may be making down the stem to easy.

 any puddling is going to depend on shape of head around valve and distance of valves from an oil drain, check to see how fast you can pour oil onto head and how fast it runs away from valves ?

4 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Quote function there are 3 ways.

 

1. Just hit the quote button on the post you want to quote.

2. Select the text you want to quote. Pause a second there should be a "Quote Selection" balloon show up. Click on it.

3. Hit the " (Quote tool) and it will create an empty quote box which you can copy and paste text into.

Wow thats easy... was wondering what the ballon was for :doh:

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4 hours ago, wil440 said:

Before climate change and emissions most big diesel valve stem seals were basically flat rubber discs that deflected most of the oil that comes from rocker and rocker tip lubrication away from the stem, the stem used to require some lubrication, I'd think now valve stem and guide material is improved to allow for reduced oil and higher temps, even engines with a positive retained seal would mostly pop the seals off the stems after a few thousand hours due to the rubber material going brittle

Today's valve guides still need lubrication and valve seals are still designed to allow small amounts of oil to seep past the stem and seal to lubricate the guides and stems. All the seal does is limit the amount of oil that goes down the guide.

 

 

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Here is a picture, regular seal on top and top hat on bottom. Red arrow is pointing at the lip that needs machined off

tophat.jpg.841903d04b3588245a901380ee1adc10.jpg

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Doesn't look like there's going to be any puddling around those valves though but the later seal/guide looks like it would stay in place longer, is there a shallow groove around the guide? I wonder if the newer seal has a spring that pulls into that groove for positive retention, also would there be machine shop capability to remove the lip over there, probably wouldn't be here, would you just change the guides ??

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And this is why EGR will be deleted off of any diesel engine I will own in the future that I use for personal transportation. This is an intake port of an 2015 DD15.

IMG_20180807_083128.jpg

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1 hour ago, wil440 said:

Doesn't look like there's going to be any puddling around those valves though but the later seal/guide looks like it would stay in place longer, is there a shallow groove around the guide? I wonder if the newer seal has a spring that pulls into that groove for positive retention, also would there be machine shop capability to remove the lip over there, probably wouldn't be here, would you just change the guides ??

That's a picture of a 12v I found on line to show seals here is mine. You can see trunion getting bit up too. So the shop is saying I can remove spring of new a seal so it doesn't grab valve so hard. Yes I thought about cutting a groove in a guide so seal can slip over it or use some superglue lol20180807_072734.jpg.50575bf5a7fb327c7749297d15deb437.jpgScreenshot_20180807-072759.png.771f7a2e010a974d4e8a7808c87108f2.png

20180806_184534.jpg.4346b5ffe152b1256eb3a1aaade3eba9.jpg20180806_191619.jpg.9822e7972c7a3e01a1ab036f787c351f.jpg

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 04Mach1 said:

And this is why EGR will be deleted off of any diesel engine I will own in the future that I use for personal transportation. This is an intake port of an 2015 DD15.

You should see the gummed carbon in smaller cat engines that have this system, routinely blocks a 1/4" tube on the 925 and 930 loaders and the egr valves just stop due to carbon one reason I got a old gen 2, and here in uk I've got all bases covered gen 2 diesel and gen 2 petrol as the uk swings one way and then the next.

 

48 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

That's a picture of a 12v I found on line to show seals here is mine. You can see trunion getting bit up too. So the shop is saying I can remove spring of new a seal so it doesn't grab valve so hard. Yes I thought about cutting a groove in a guide so seal can slip over it or use some superglue lol

Maybe use a good heat resistant silicon, cummins do one, it's silver IIRC or whats the limits on your gorilla snot ? would that stick them on

18 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

So I'm in process of figuring out why some of my seals are tore/smashed.

Did you also say it was only exhaust seals ?, as I said earlier I've never seen intake seals damaged, intake valves always run way cooler and the seals life reflects this, I read your truck specs and I'd say it's a trade off for more power, my truck is as left the factory with 154k and I'd be interested to see what the condition of it's exhaust valve seals are.

One a slightly different note I'm sure I've seen valve guide seals held down by a spring clip that pushed into 2 slots in the lower part of the seal and located in 2 slots either side of the guide, this thinking about it must have been years ago on either a very large Ruston Bucyrus  or Ruston generator  or ladder crane engine, worthless information I know but I've seen it somewhere

Edited by wil440
misspelling

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Posted (edited)

Has anyone used or know of a good loctite that can bond Vinton and metal for high heat. I'm probably going to try using something to keep new seals from poping up. My new seals will be made from Vinton and head is cast, I'll clean it up really good and hope for the best.

Edit, Has anyone used loctite 266

http://www.loctite.co.uk/loctite-4087.htm?nodeid=8803867197441

Edited by Dieselfuture

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

Are you using top hat without machining the lip of the head? And how do yours fail, get tore or wear out.

I hope this thread gets someplace lol.

No, not yet I accidentally ordered them. The intake side still looks new. My exhaust seals look like a beaver got in the valve cover and just chewed them up. I've noticed that if I don't get over 35 psi they last but as soon as I have a couple of good hard 50+ psi runs then the start the slightest smoke then it just gets worse in time. Bugging the death out of me. So I'm watching this!!😃

Edited by mossyoak71

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1 hour ago, mossyoak71 said:

I've noticed that if I don't get over 35 psi they last but as soon as I have a couple of good hard 50+ psi runs then the start the slightest smoke then it just gets worse in time. 

That seems to be a common problem. My take on this is when truck was new it was used as intended with 20psi of boost for a long time everything had time to wear in place. So with time gap between seal and valve stem got looser and by the time dumb kids :sofa: got a hold of it and put injectors and turbos and tuners on, seal had enough blow by and it didn't work it's way up to get smashed by retainers. Idk I'm just guessing, but it had to be a problem and people started to use top hat seals. This goes for trunions too newer trucks have an oil gally to prevent scoring on roker and trunion. Same with roker bridges on newer stuff they are stiffened with webbing and not just stamped. 

So for now the question remains on what monkey glue we need to use to get away with regular seals.

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I knew someone would mention it lol. But seriously need something to keep them in place and something that doesn't cause damage to engine later if it ever got hard and got out.

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