Extreme erratic loss of power, feels like driving over washed out road

[2000Ram2500]

Or how about this-

A guy in town had to close down his shop and a guy i work with knows him fairly well. He has 3 injection pumps just sitting in storage. The issue is they came out of school buses. Which leads me to believe they came out of a "marine" or RV version of the 24v. He said he'll give me one to test it and see if it works but before i throw a different pump on it i wanna make sure i wont be getting myself into anything serious or bad or hypothetically blow the engine somehow with a pump of a school bus.

 

Edit-

Talked with industrial injection. There saying the difference is in calibration. SO being an 027, HO being 028, and RV being 029.

That being said, would that mean its not possible to get the RV one to work on an SO even with injectors? Would i have to change ECMs and programming and etc etc. Or am I thinking about this wrong

Edited November 16, 2018 by 2000Ram2500

[dripley]

Good question of which I have no answer for. 

[2000Ram2500]

I guess i could try it out and see what happens? Whats the worst case scenario? I would imagine it would be something similar to putting a HO pump on an SO

[dripley]

I dont think that it would hurt anything to try. Maybe it would long term I just dont know. 

 I do know with the codes you are seeing and it being the OE pump, I have to gree your pump is most likely toast. Mine and several other folks oe pumps never lasted thru warranty. Mine bit the dust at 75k. But I understand why you want to try it.

[2000Ram2500]

So I've been doing some digging. The bosch number to look for is 470506029. A few websites have it listed as a RV275 motorhome injection pump. Which would be paird with obviously the RV275 injectors. Im sure paired with the ECM from a bus or RV it probably has a very good fuel map for heavy loads which would be good for towing.

 

Now im curious. Using an SO engine, bolting an "RV275 injection pump to it, giving it bigger injectors, and using the quadzilla to dial in your tuning to adjust for built in VP timing advancement differences (im assuming for now that the timing is different anyways), would this be a possible upgrade for people to do. I wouldnt consider the motorhome/bus pumps very common or readily available but they do exist.

 

Could it mean an easier and longer life for a pump that is set up for heavier duty use. And what about the hot rod vps. Theres obviously a way to crank these up from the SO and HO versions and are those just using "RV" parts to do that

Edited November 17, 2018 by 2000Ram2500

[2000Ram2500]

I found this interesting. 

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/275-hp-vp44-on-my-01.145316/

Seems i wont be the first one to do this which i figured. But at least other people are having success with them. People arent calling them bus vp's or anything like that I can only find information when i search for 275hp VP44

[Dieselfuture]

Wonder if it would matter at all with quadzilla on defueling part. I think ecm is in control and qwadzila overrides ecm signal so it should be fine I would think. Someone smarter then me will figure it out. 

[Guest 04Mach1]

I think that installing a VP44 that doesn't match the CPL (Critical Parts List) number of your engine listed on the front gear housing tag is just a matter of tuning to get it to function efficiently. 

 

Per Cummins via Quickserve: This Critical Parts List (CPL) Manual is a listing of basic parts and timing specifications which are necessary to produce a given engine performance. By reference to CPL numbers stamped on the engine dataplate, this list can be used to identify parts within an engine. These parts then determine whether a fuel pump calibration is suitable for that engine.

The CPL number is stamped on the engine data (name) plate and is listed with the fuel pump calibration values in the pump calibration manuals for full cross reference of information.

Any of the engine models on the CPL list that can be built with any combination of the engine parts tabulated on that CPL without affecting engine performance or certification requirements. To insure that the correct parts are used for a specific application, cross check the CPL content with the Original Engine Parts list for the engine configuration.

The aneroid or AFC listed on the CPL might not be on your engine, depending upon its application. Check the fuel pump code of the original engine parts list for this item.

The fuel pump code(s) apply to a specific CPL or engine model. A fuel pump code and CPL cross reference is in the fuel pump calibration index. Do not intermix fuel pump codes and engine models or CPL's. Check the fuel pump dataplate to make sure it corresponds to the correct engine model.

The injection timing charts and specifications are included for a quick reference check, use your engine shop manual for further information on injection timing. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by 04Mach1

[Mopar1973Man]

On 11/16/2018 at 7:57 PM, 2000Ram2500 said:

Im sure paired with the ECM from a bus or RV it probably has a very good fuel map for heavy loads which would be good for towing.

 

I'm not sure if the Quadzilla will work with industrial application ECM. 

 

On 11/16/2018 at 7:57 PM, 2000Ram2500 said:

Now im curious. Using an SO engine, bolting an "RV275 injection pump to it, giving it bigger injectors, and using the quadzilla to dial in your tuning to adjust for built in VP timing advancement differences (im assuming for now that the timing is different anyways), would this be a possible upgrade for people to do. I wouldnt consider the motorhome/bus pumps very common or readily available but they do exist.

 

No since in converting to RV series stuff stay with the factory Dodge stuff. Quadzilla can tune much better than any of the factory fueling or timing maps which typically are heavily retarded and built around EPA emissions and smog regulations. Quadzilla can produce cleaner tunes and better economy than any factory tune could. Being we build around performance and economy you can reach a better goal!

[Guest 04Mach1]

On 11/16/2018 at 7:57 PM, 2000Ram2500 said:

So I've been doing some digging. The bosch number to look for is 470506029. A few websites have it listed as a RV275 motorhome injection pump. Which would be paird with obviously the RV275 injectors. Im sure paired with the ECM from a bus or RV it probably has a very good fuel map for heavy loads which would be good for towing.

I'm with @Mopar1973Man on this too. I would stick with the 027 pump. The 027 pump is calibrated for other parts of the engine such as cam and pistons. Not all ISB engines are built the same internally. 

 

Another thing is the amount of work to modify a Dodge wiring harness to get a genuine Cummins CM550 ECM to even idle the engine wouldn't be worthwhile. I doubt the CM550 ECM is compatible with the Dodge PCM in terms of communication which is why our 2nd gen trucks use a specialty CM551 ECM only used on VP Dodge trucks.

 

CM550 ECM has 2 plugs

CM551 ECM has 1 plug

[Mopar1973Man]

Correct. There is TSB filed between Dodge and Cummins stating that Cummins wasn't allowed to retrofit ECM or software on the dodge trucks. 

[dripley]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Correct. There is TSB filed between Dodge and Cummins stating that Cummins wasn't allowed to retrofit ECM or software on the dodge trucks. 

I am curious about this since my ECM is apparently made by Cummins or at least has their name on it. Was Cummins making them under license of Dodge. My OE did did not have the  Cummins name on it as I remember.

[Guest 04Mach1]

8 hours ago, dripley said:

I am curious about this since my ECM is apparently made by Cummins or at least has their name on it. Was Cummins making them under license of Dodge. My OE did did not have the  Cummins name on it as I remember.

Our trucks have a Cummins manufactured CM551 ECM that is exclusive to the VP Cummins ISB powered Dodge's.

 

Any industrial equipment or commercial equipment with a VP ISB engine will have a CM550 ECM. 

 

The notable exterior difference is:

CM550 - Two 50 pin plugs

CM551 - One 50 pin plug

 

I'm guessing that the CM550 which is on every non-Dodge VP ISB is a more capable ECM compared to the CM551 used on every Dodge ISB but I don't have as much experience with a CM551 to give a definite comparison.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by 04Mach1

[2000Ram2500]

Hope everyone had a nice day off

 

Pictures of the 029 pumps look as though they would plug right into the locking connector for the dodge vp. I was suggesting the use of the quadzilla as a way of making up for any performance differences between the two pumps. Im sure they are all built basically the same and have the same pinned connections. And the CM551 ecm obviously has the capability of running the SO or HO pumps. And for the CM550 i would think that they have 2 connections because the ECM is essentially running the entire vehicle as opposed to providing information to the dodge pcm for the dodge side of things.

 

I cant imagine that bosch completely redesigned the 029s simply because they weren't going into a small truck anymore. For costs and all that i would bet they only changed internals to provide a better tune for the higher output engine.

 

As far as internals go i found these threads here-

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133306

this is is linked in the first thread but ill put it here anyways

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94268&highlight=rv275&page=2

[Guest 04Mach1]

Good info on pistons. I say if you are building a truck intended for a weekend sport that if it breaks it's no big deal and there is more money than sense available by all means experiment with different parts, but if the truck is going to be used as a reliable driver or hauler I would stick with the CPL fuel pump of 027. 

 

There will likely be very little benefit if any to be had by experimenting with fuel pumps. 

[2000Ram2500]

Im not looking for this to be a weekend truck it is my daily driver.. or was until it went down. My thinking isnt really performance gains that im after i just want the truck back on the road and to not break the bank while doing it and if i can get a 029 off a bus for a couple hundred bucks and it works then great. If it doesnt work out then i'll take it as a loss and buy the correct pump and if it last for years to come then great. 

 

What im doing here is looking into what would cause it to not work from the beginning and if it will work what problems will i see and so far i cant find anything that says it absolutely wont work and i cant find anything showing that down the road i'll have melted pistons or something bad. Engine internal differences are minimal from what i've been seeing.

[2000Ram2500]

Little update but not much

 

Fuel pressure gauge came in from vulcan performance. Got a mechanical isspro 0-30. Got it installed, made a huge mess of fuel trying to get it bled.

 

Cycled the key and bumped it to start and let the lift pump run. I noticed it sounded funny while i was doing that to get the air out of the isolator. The best reading i could get was less than 2 psi. It made it to the first tick mark then a little past it. I decided to try running it. No start, no start, no start. Hooked grid heaters back up and cycled those a couple times to get it nice and warm. Still no start. Then as im about to give up for the night it started, ran like s*** for about 5 seconds and died. Couldnt get it restarted. It was at that point that i noticed i didnt hear the lift pump running anymore.

 

Is it normal operation for it to stop running after several attempts at starting? It just seems too weird that it would coincidentally stop working as im trying to diagnose it. I didnt look into it very much it was getting down to freezing and i was cold and dinner was ready so it was a good time to give up for the day

[dripley]

Sounds like you still have some air in the system. Have you tried opening some of the injector lines at the head to be sure you have fuel to them?

As afar as the pump is concerned, when you get back to it bump the starter, no engine start, and see if it runs. It should for 20 or so seconds. Do that just confirm the pump is running. 

[2000Ram2500]

Thats what i was doing to get air out of the fuel pressure gauge isolator. Crack open the bleed screw and let it shoot out of there until the bubble stop. I would turn the key to run, bump start and let the lift pump build pressure while i grabbed my allen wrench and bled it. But after that and i was trying to start it is when i noticed that it wasnt coming on anymore. I'll have to check again tonight and get the multimeter on it to see if i've got power and all that. But i definitely didnt hear it anymore last night.

[dripley]

The air I am talking is most likely in the high pressure lines and will require you to open some of them. 1 3 and 4 work very well. Leave them open while cranking the truck. Back the nut off but not all the way. This way you can see if fuel is getting to the injectors. As you get fuel to one tighten it down and so on. It should fire then but will run rough until all the air is out. Just like it did the one time you got it to fire off for a few seconds.

 Of course the above is moot if the lift pump is not pumping fuel to the VP.