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2000Ram2500

Extreme erratic loss of power, feels like driving over washed out road

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So I'm back.. started the 2 stroke oil. P1689 hasn't been giving me any trouble for a while.

Today while driving to work someone came to a complete stop in the middle of the road so to keep moving I stepped on it to pass and go around them. As soon as i stepped on it I had nothing. It was acting like the p1689 problems i was having but 10x worse.

On my lunch break a minute ago I drive to go pick up cigarettes and it's doing it some more but very minor by comparison. On my way back to work I was barely able to make it up this slight hill and i had little to no power and was blowing blue (oil?) smoke the entire way.

Now to fill in some details, I may have done too much oil in the fuel on my last full up by about 2 or 3 ounces. I tried the edge on stock mode with no change so I just disconnected it but haven't driven it that way yet. In park in my parking spot I was revving it to try and get it to act up so I could hear what is going on and it ran/sounded fine with the exception of a very minor hiccup that I could barely tell was there. 

I'm assuming my next step needs to be getting a mechanical gauge and check fuel pressure. But that's where I'm drawing a blank. Not really sure what direction to go with this. I wish I had the ability to data log I feel like that would give me the extra input I need.

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I'll be leaving work here in an hour or so and im gonna have the wife follow me home while i limp it back so its not stuck in the work parking lot. I'll get a mechanical gauge on it when i can but i dont have one right now so i need to buy one. Or i can use this as an opportunity to finally get a gauge mounted on the pillar.

 

Not a single code was thrown today. I got nothing in there right now.

 

Honestly at this point im just nervous about the blue smoke. It was distinctly different from any other color smoke that has ever come out of that tailpipe and definitely the dreaded oily blue smoke. In the back of my mind theres that worrisome thought that i messed up some rings or a piston somehow and its causing me to burn oil. But at idle it sounds just like it always did.

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Definitely check the codes. When my oe VP went I experienced a similar issue with low power and a boat load of blue smoke. This was at 75k. Did not know about trouble codes back the but it was the VP that was messing up. Ran fine few days and then bam out of the blue it would happen. Nothing wrong in the engine just the VP.

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Thats so strange... I guess my p1689 code could have been the vp this entire time but it never got this bad. Or the amount of time i spent driving with it acting up could have actually done some harm i suppose. It just came out of nowhere this morning its been running beautifully for weeks now. I'll see if i can get it to throw anything for a code on my way home. I cant say i've wanted a check engine light before now but at this point i guess there isnt a whole lot of other things i can do unless i wanna start throwing money at it.

 

The real bi**h is that i had a spare vp but i sold it because i was in a real bad spot a while back...

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Just so you know, not all codes will trip the CEL. I would expect VP codes to trip it though. I would check it, light on or not.

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There is a code in there for the grid heater thats stored and the companion module code.

 

Driving home yesterday from work with the edge disconnected it didnt act up at all. So it either coincidentally decided to stop acting up at the same time or the edge is at fault here.

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Good Morning. I am not nearly as well versed as most members here so please forgive me. From reading your about your problem first you mention the 2 stroke oil. I have over dosed mine a few times and all it did was change the sound, it got noticeably quieter but no impact on normal driving.  IMO not your problem. 

 

Sounds like you do not have any gauges.  When possable I would try to get some installed but for now I would see if someone in your area has a mechanical fuel pressure gauge you can borrow.  As a note Harbor Freight has a cheap mechanical fuel injection test set for less than 20.00 (I paid 16.00 with discount) comes with some adapters,  you might look into that if in a jam.  The HF set is 0 to100psi range from memory.   While not the best set but it will give you an indicatior. I bought one and purchaced a couple of extra cheap gages, 0-50 PSi and one 0-300 psi.. I used it for testing  transmission line pressure..  Just throwing out an idea.

 

Now back to what I would do with no gauges. Check for water in your fuel filter-change/replace the fuel filter-check your intake for any restrictions (filter and inside the fender well area)- borrow a code reader and check for pending of full on codes. I hope it isn't your injection pump.  A question ? Are you running a stock 2000 fuel pump ?.  My first fuel pump failed at around 50K (got down to 7 psi) and at 135,000 I am still on my second one (14-15 psi at start up, runs 12 to 14 around town, towing 10k I can drive it down to 10psi under WOT.  Normally towing around 12psi just going down the road)

Forgive the interruption :).

I see your last post, I was slow on my post.  OK about the Edge !  I hope that is it. That would be good news. Sweet.

I feel really dumb I see in your signature you have a Fass lift pump.. Noted .

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It had gauges when i bought it but they were wired in with solid wire and rather than track down the break in the wire i just took it all out. The fuel pressure gauge port had to go when my fuel like developed a pin hole. The trans temp sensor was a big block of aluminum hose clamped to the transmission line and i wasnt very happy with the way it was marring the line so i took it off too.

 

I cant eliminate air in the lines or fuel pressure yet so i'll probably end up getting that harbor freight tester. I dont need it to be 100% accurate but it would be good to know if my lift pump is failing me or not. It is not the stock lift pump i was told its a Fass but no idea if it actually is or what size it is. Shouldnt be any air restrictions its a cone filter so im not pulling air from the fender anymore and it is dirty but it can still move air through it.

 

I was curious about the tap wire it seemed a little too close to the "intake manifold" part of the head and when i was unplugging the rest of the edge i couldnt get it to come off so i left it. But i was wondering if the tap could have been making contact and shorting out causing this to happen. But i think that would have definitely cause a code to trip the light.

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Update-

So I'm getting the truck warmed up to leave for work. I let it idle for a minute before I hit the throttle to hold it at about 1200 rpm. Before I was ready to high idle i noticed a slight miss. So I hit the throttle and noticed it got way worse and started to put out more blue smoke. Shortly after the light came on so I scanned it and I get p0216, fuel timing error. That's the VP death code if I'm not mistaken.

 

So I guess it's time to start shopping for a vp

 

Edit:

Gotta get fuel pressure figured out first. I've always had my doubts about the lift pump not being able to keep up and after some picture comparison i would say it is a fass pump but the real basic one with no filters or anything its just a pump. If it is my lift pump going bad i plan on getting one with filters and all that. Just would be nice to know my fuel is as clean as possible by the time it gets to the engine and vp. Probably going to be ordering a big line kit and fuel pressure gauge kit from vulcan performance here and figure out where i actually am with fuel pressure before i do anything else or waste money.

Edited by 2000Ram2500

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My bet is a bad VP. Failing injection pumps and / or injectors will produce bluish white smoke or even gray smoke due to improper injection timing and incorrect air / fuel ratio causing incomplete combustion and low power. Pretty much only electronic failures will cause fault codes and it usually takes a pretty significant mechanical failure to cause a fault code like a dead cylinder producing zero power. For instance I had a Detroit DD15 audibly popping through the intake and a noticable misfire come into the shop a while back. It had a broken intake valve head but yet not one fault code for the misfire. IMG_20171114_170825.jpg.2a9758aa6f3ad14125af6673a1a47078.jpg

 

@2000Ram2500 You've probably been asked but... What's the age of the VP? What's the age of the injectors? What condition is the fuel filter in? Your definitely on the right track by checking lift pump output pressure at the VP inlet in the fuel systems current state but results may be inconclusive or inaccurate until the rest of the fuel system is in perfect working order. If you're questioning the integrity of any part of the fuel system it usually is the best practice to pay an injection shop to bench test the parts or if you have the cash to just skip the testing and go straight to replacement. A complete fuel system replacement (VP, injectors, and lift pump) would be around $2000 if you did the work yourself.

 

My suggestion is to have questionable parts bench tested. I use Central Motive in Albuquerque all the time for this type of testing but I'm not sure what's close in your area. Albuquerque or Phoenix may be the closest injection shops that are capable of bench testing VP and injectors.

 

 

 

 

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@04Mach1 i appreciate the input. As far as the age of the parts the only thing not original is the lift pump. VP and injectors are all original to my knowledge when i bought the truck the guy said the only parts he ever had to replace was the parking sprag because it broke on him one time. I personally change my fuel filter every july. I use the factory one since i get a discount on it. I think you might actually be the first/only one to ask the age of the parts. I have no idea how long that fass has been installed on the truck but based on the fact i already had to replace one of the lines because it had a pin hole and the other line is cracking all over i would say its been on there a while. But to the best of my knowledge it has original injectors and original vp.

 

I might just have to have the pump bench tested. We have a commercial account with jasper through my work i bet they would be willing to test it for me we seem to do a good amount of business with them and according to the verified rebuilder page they are listed as having an 815 test bench. 

 

Am i wrong in assuming that getting a fuel pressure reading will point me in the right direction or is the only way to tell by having them all bench tested. I was under the impression that finally getting a reading on my fuel pressure would be my answer. I've had my doubts about the lift pump just not giving it enough fuel for a while now i just never got around to getting a gauge for it.

 

as far as getting the work done myself im not afraid to do it. I consider myself to be pretty educated with all this but i've never been a professional mechanic. Just a lifetime of working on stuff. Quads, bikes, cars, tractors, semis, trucks, building my buggy etc. And i see it every day being in parts looking out in the shop how screwed up things are getting with the addition of more and more computers. Ive just not gone this far into diagnosing a diesel.

 

I have a ton of maintenance work to do to this thing as of right now. I've got an oily mess all over the engine oil cooler. My radiator is packed with junk from the blow by hose. I need to look for the KDP. Transmission needs to be serviced. I've never had the chance to check my diffs or transfer case fluids. I need to flush out all this nasty coolant and my water pump is just barely starting to seep as of about a couple months ago. Valve cover started to seep. I need to do a valve adjustment im at 163k now. I want to do injectors anyways. And i plan on getting a quadzilla as well. So if im digging in and pulling the vp i might as well do as much of the other things i can as well.

 

I will mention that after talking to our diesel guy in the shop he said to look and see if the turbo is leaking oil at all. I've never seen any of these turbos leak oil in fact im not sure if i've ever seen one go bad. Thats not to say that they never do obviously it just seems unlikely to me.

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None of the work you describe is difficult to do. It is all bolt off bolt on and you can find good articles right here to explain it better. I am not mechanic either but have done quite a bit with help from here. Finding the time is my biggest issue.

Edited by dripley
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I would just get a new VP if yours is original something like Industrial Injection. Even if it bench tests ok, I doubt there's much life left in it, especially the ones that came from Factory. Even the rebuilt units generally get about 250k just saying if you're going to pay few hundred dollars for bench testing, might as well spend a little more and get a new pump. Jmo

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To be honest @Dieselfuture ive wondered the same thing that maybe its just the pumps time to go. Its had a pretty rough last 30k miles. Tons of long cross country trips. San diego to denver and back twice, moving to arizona took about 10 trips back and forth altogether. Arizona to california to see friends and family 4 times now. Arizona to colorado. Arizona to vegas. Lots of long and hot miles through the desert. Towing an extremely loaded down trailer several times now. The last 1000 mile trip to colorado and back i was fighting p1689 symptoms and im beginning to wonder if that did any serious damage to the pump.

 

If i get an injection pump it will be from jasper. They've got the best price i can find so far since we have an account with them it just makes sense and they have a test bench. They offer a one year warranty so if a problem was to arise with there work im sure i would see it by then.

 

@dripley its not the actual work im worried about im worried about spending a ton of money and not fixing my problem. I see time and time again people throw an injection pump at it and they post again a month later with the same problems. I dont want to be in the position. Especially with holidays coming up. So my goal right now is to diagnose it as accurately as possible so i can avoid all that. Im really hoping the fuel pressure gauge shows up before thanksgiving so i can do that in the morning.

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Never to diagnose more, been there and done that. Especially with a $1000 part. Of course I have poured some money down the drain before chasing problems.

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3 minutes ago, dripley said:

Never to diagnose more, been there and done that. Especially with a $1000 part. Of course I have poured some money down the drain before chasing problems.

 

Oh yea definitely done it to myself before.. 

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5 hours ago, 2000Ram2500 said:

@04Mach1 i appreciate the input. As far as the age of the parts the only thing not original is the lift pump. VP and injectors are all original to my knowledge when i bought the truck the guy said the only parts he ever had to replace was the parking sprag because it broke on him one time. I personally change my fuel filter every july. I use the factory one since i get a discount on it. I think you might actually be the first/only one to ask the age of the parts. I have no idea how long that fass has been installed on the truck but based on the fact i already had to replace one of the lines because it had a pin hole and the other line is cracking all over i would say its been on there a while. But to the best of my knowledge it has original injectors and original vp.

 

I might just have to have the pump bench tested. We have a commercial account with jasper through my work i bet they would be willing to test it for me we seem to do a good amount of business with them and according to the verified rebuilder page they are listed as having an 815 test bench. 

 

Am i wrong in assuming that getting a fuel pressure reading will point me in the right direction or is the only way to tell by having them all bench tested. I was under the impression that finally getting a reading on my fuel pressure would be my answer. I've had my doubts about the lift pump just not giving it enough fuel for a while now i just never got around to getting a gauge for it.

 

as far as getting the work done myself im not afraid to do it. I consider myself to be pretty educated with all this but i've never been a professional mechanic. Just a lifetime of working on stuff. Quads, bikes, cars, tractors, semis, trucks, building my buggy etc. And i see it every day being in parts looking out in the shop how screwed up things are getting with the addition of more and more computers. Ive just not gone this far into diagnosing a diesel.

 

I have a ton of maintenance work to do to this thing as of right now. I've got an oily mess all over the engine oil cooler. My radiator is packed with junk from the blow by hose. I need to look for the KDP. Transmission needs to be serviced. I've never had the chance to check my diffs or transfer case fluids. I need to flush out all this nasty coolant and my water pump is just barely starting to seep as of about a couple months ago. Valve cover started to seep. I need to do a valve adjustment im at 163k now. I want to do injectors anyways. And i plan on getting a quadzilla as well. So if im digging in and pulling the vp i might as well do as much of the other things i can as well.

 

I will mention that after talking to our diesel guy in the shop he said to look and see if the turbo is leaking oil at all. I've never seen any of these turbos leak oil in fact im not sure if i've ever seen one go bad. Thats not to say that they never do obviously it just seems unlikely to me.

Testing lift pump pressure is definitely recommended. The reason I said it may be inconclusive is if the VP is junk you will not get accurate WOT fuel pressures as the worn malfunctioning VP will not fuel like a healthy VP. 

 

It's an almost guarantee that the injectors are needed. I had the originals to my 01 that had 98,000 miles tested and they were popping off with way too little pressure. As far as VP I would change it for piece of mind regardless of testing results especially since it's the original OEM and you have had fault codes and symptoms indicating it may be failing. 

 

I'm highly doubtful the turbo is bad because it wouldn't be intermittent. If it's seized it won't magically unlock itself and sometimes works. If it's leaking oil it won't magically seal up and only leak sometimes. 

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@04Mach1 I can agree with that. Injectors are cheap enough and I have to do a valve adjustment anyways and the gasket is starting to seep a little. If I'm doing the vp I'll have the lines off anyways.

 

Who would be a better bet for a vp? Jasper or industrial injection. I don't want an upgraded one just a reliable one.

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DAP and Vulcan both sell VPs. DAP gets some from industrial injection. I am sure you can ask them and they will tell. I dont think you can beat their prices. Who ever you get one from be sure it comes with a new computer. Used computers are still available. Do a little shopping.

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Or how about this-

A guy in town had to close down his shop and a guy i work with knows him fairly well. He has 3 injection pumps just sitting in storage. The issue is they came out of school buses. Which leads me to believe they came out of a "marine" or RV version of the 24v. He said he'll give me one to test it and see if it works but before i throw a different pump on it i wanna make sure i wont be getting myself into anything serious or bad or hypothetically blow the engine somehow with a pump of a school bus.

 

Edit-

Talked with industrial injection. There saying the difference is in calibration. SO being an 027, HO being 028, and RV being 029.

That being said, would that mean its not possible to get the RV one to work on an SO even with injectors? Would i have to change ECMs and programming and etc etc. Or am I thinking about this wrong

Edited by 2000Ram2500

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I guess i could try it out and see what happens? Whats the worst case scenario? I would imagine it would be something similar to putting a HO pump on an SO

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I dont think that it would hurt anything to try. Maybe it would long term I just dont know. 

 I do know with the codes you are seeing and it being the OE pump, I have to gree your pump is most likely toast. Mine and several other folks oe pumps never lasted thru warranty. Mine bit the dust at 75k. But I understand why you want to try it.

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So I've been doing some digging. The bosch number to look for is 470506029. A few websites have it listed as a RV275 motorhome injection pump. Which would be paird with obviously the RV275 injectors. Im sure paired with the ECM from a bus or RV it probably has a very good fuel map for heavy loads which would be good for towing.

 

Now im curious. Using an SO engine, bolting an "RV275 injection pump to it, giving it bigger injectors, and using the quadzilla to dial in your tuning to adjust for built in VP timing advancement differences (im assuming for now that the timing is different anyways), would this be a possible upgrade for people to do. I wouldnt consider the motorhome/bus pumps very common or readily available but they do exist.

 

Could it mean an easier and longer life for a pump that is set up for heavier duty use. And what about the hot rod vps. Theres obviously a way to crank these up from the SO and HO versions and are those just using "RV" parts to do that

Edited by 2000Ram2500

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