Engine rpm's still surging up & down at idle, replaced vp again..help!!

[rburks 51]

O.K I replaced V.P 2-months ago, after this the engine idled up & down spuraticaly. then i noticed it would try to die sometimes when shifting to drive or reverse.. Yesterday i changed out the VP again & problem is still the same and still there... last nite after idleing for 1/2 hour the RPM'S would roll up 2-300rpm at a time this is worse than before:banghead: Is this ECM??? PLESE HELP!! Richie

[Mopar1973Man 7,205 5 Vehicles]

Error codes? Fuel pressure? Random idle up and down is very conserning... It points towards a bad ECM but I would like to get more clues that could point the finger at it.

[rburks 51]

Error codes?

Fuel pressure?

Random idle up and down is very conserning... It points towards a bad ECM but I would like to get more clues that could point the finger at it.

[

[jlwelding 26]

Welcome to my world. 1year and 2 months worth and 4k later still surging.

[Prowelder 3]

Yeah I'm thinking an ECM problem. Could be a cam/ crank sensor too, or a dirty fuel filter... or a bad wire...

[Junkman 6]

Someone posted putting aluminum foil on the alternator wires. I didn't pay attention because that's not a problem I've run into. VP is a pretty expensive part to throw at a problem without assurance that it will fix the thing.

[rburks 51]

[Prowelder 3]

[rburks 51]

[MoparFreak1988 6]

rburks investigate the apps sensor that is to the t what mine was doing last year a bad input to the computer can do anything to a truck and not just a dead pedal ther is no throttle plate just wires anything could happen I would suggest you start ther just my two cents

[blake 0]

My 2001 does this too. It started about 3 months ago. My LP fuel pressure is fine, but I have a rough idle and with very light throttle pressure it sounds like a heavily cammed engine with a big lope. It surges at slow speed/light throttle like creeping out my gravel driveway, but once I'm on it everything is fine. It does surge when coasting to a stop but I have an auto trans. I have no idea what it is but am just waiting for the VP to die I guess.

[MoparFreak1988 6]

Correct me if im wrong but I do believe you guys are both 24 valves with auto not to be preachy or nething but its simple if you've got good pressure to the vp your lift is good I dont know a way to test the vp44 directly other than live feeds an error codes so say that is good then its one of five basic things computer, wiring, cam, crank and apps sensor the apps sensor went on my truck and it was failing for six months untill it went completly belly up I could drive it but I had no error code untill it went completly south of the border it would surge die and do all sorts of goofy things no I have also replaced my crank sensor this on my truck seemed rather touchy I had an error code before it went bad and didnt go away till I put a new one in and cleaned the connection then cleared it now wenever I clean my truck if I get water down by that sensor its the only one that would trow a code clear let it dry and it'd be gone so no error codes I would look for loose connections try to get someone to get you live field unless you can do it yourself then check apps and cam sensor if i was close to you I'd bet you a beer that surging and unexplained stuff in a computer cotroled truck is computer related wether it be one of those five things and anyone could be bad and the truck may still drive just a thought and my hope it helps and I cant guarantee nething it but its a good place to start

[dave_connor 0]

Just my two cents, my 2000 3500 did this too. Never any codes. I had the 2000 looked at at several dealers and they did several things in attempt to fix, new fuel distributor, new cam sensor, and new battery cable ends and ironically the battery cable ends seemed to solve this on my 2000 for several months before I wrapped it around a pole. My 2001 3500 has done this from day one and 18.7 miles, and the battery cables ends are tight on the batteries so I've never done anything, wasn't interested in not having the truck during trial and error repair and am out of warranty of course. I've seen several references to this type of behavior being a lock out torque converter issue functioning at idle, or doing the same thing at crusing speeds like 70mph. Try turning off the overdrive when your at idle if it bothers you so much, I think that shuts off the TC circuit, but I don't know jack. Never really bothered me that much, actually only really notice it surging when I'm in line at a drive-thru restaurant right next to the building and hear it, and sometimes I can see the dash and head lights kindof getting brighter when it upsurges at night which begs the foil over the alternator wire ends question. Good luck and keep us posted!!! I'd love to hear a definitive solution. Dave

[jlwelding 26]

Go to You Tube and type in JL Welding truck and if this is what your truck is doing all I can say is wellcome to my world. I have done the test this test that dont throw your money away and all the such. Ask Mike what he thinks about it.I have spent 4k trying to track it down and I dont wont to hear have you checked your grounds? The bolts are worn out from cleaning. What I can tell you is everything that touches the outside of the eng. is brand new at least one time some two and three times. I am trying a used wiring harness in a few days when it gets here. If that dont fix it nothing will. I am even willing to make a bet with anyone here that dont fix it either.I have had so many people look at this truck when they see me coming they hide. When you call, you get answer machine.What I would like to do is do like the computer hunting thing they had a few years ago where you shot from your computer, only have my truck on there with a pay out if you hit the right spot the truck blows to H and back. Now that would be cool. Can you amagin how many people would watch that. Oh and use a 50 cal lolIf anybody out there would like to do this I will donate my truck.lmao

[guesswho512 3]

i've been following your "events" for awhile, jl. and when you started down the harness path, it made me wonder....in the cable industry, when we are looking for a bad spot in the line(possibly 100s or 1000s of feet) we use a TDR. the TDR sends a RF wave down the copper. the TDR then tells of any impedance on that line, and how many feet away that is. could something like this be used to test an engine's harness?

[jlwelding 26]

Man I wish, I dont know how it would work. But it sound's good. And there might even be such a thing.

[rburks 51]

O.K sorry Guys, Many thanks for the replys... I have been gone for a few days and have nor been able to reply to the thread....I think i need to better explain what my truck is doing ....here goes;

When i start my truck, say like now..it idles O.K. then after it idles for a while it will start idleing up on its Own just like theres a Ghost in the cab patting the fuel pedal... uuuup & doown..at random

also if you when you put in reverse and forward it eithier tries to die or does die..especialt if yo pat the fuel pedal reving up the engine and the shifting after the rpms fall back it dies every time

sence my last post..Talking several times with Michael, I have completey took apart my entire ground system & checked...checked the Ground wires {black/tan} from VP & ECM TO Battery Ground with DVM, all were good with little to no resistance.. "OH Yeah" we found out something interesting about the "ECM GROUND" Buuut..I let Michael explain that.."Dont want to spoil it for him" ha..ha..

I replaced the cam sensor..no change...my truck does not have crank sensor 2002 model

I am at the point that i think it has to bee the apps or ECM which one?....i don't know:shrug:

Richie

[Mopar1973Man 7,205 5 Vehicles]

ECM is going be the next step... As for Rburks comment...

"OH Yeah" we found out something interesting about the "ECM GROUND" Buuut..I let Michael explain that.."Dont want to spoil it for him" ha..ha..

As he calls me out on a mistake... Well being the first wiring diagram we all had was the cheap black and white diagrams from the Dodge FSM well I did pay close attention to the grounds. Come to find out the color map shows very clearly the ground terimnal behind the starter is lift pump, fuel heater and I think grid heater solenoid. As for the rest of the grounds like the engine sensors and the ECM ground we start tracing them down and found out they come together at the engine side battery ground not the terminal behind the starter. So I need a good ol'....

[98whitelightnin 209 4 Vehicles]

Go to You Tube and type in JL Welding truck and if this is what your truck is doing all I can say is wellcome to my world. I have done the test this test that dont throw your money away and all the such. Ask Mike what he thinks about it. I have spent 4k trying to track it down and I dont wont to hear have you checked your grounds? The bolts are worn out from cleaning. What I can tell you is everything that touches the outside of the eng. is brand new at least one time some two and three times. I am trying a used wiring harness in a few days when it gets here. If that dont fix it nothing will. I am even willing to make a bet with anyone here that dont fix it either. I have had so many people look at this truck when they see me coming they hide. When you call, you get answer machine. What I would like to do is do like the computer hunting thing they had a few years ago where you shot from your computer, only have my truck on there with a pay out if you hit the right spot the truck blows to H and back. Now that would be cool. Can you amagin how many people would watch that. Oh and use a 50 cal lol If anybody out there would like to do this I will donate my truck.lmao

Im sure you have checked but I changed injectors one time and forgot to pull one of the tubes out and got an idle that sounded alot like that. I knew what it was because I knew I messed up when I did it.

[rburks 51]

Im sure you have checked but I changed injectors one time and forgot to pull one of the tubes out and got an idle that sounded alot like that. I knew what it was because I knew I messed up when I did it.

How did you get the Injectors out without pulling the Tubes first?????

--- Update to the previous post...

As he calls me out on a mistake... Well being the first wiring diagram we all had was the cheap black and white diagrams from the Dodge FSM well I did pay close attention to the grounds. Come to find out the color map shows very clearly the ground terimnal behind the starter is lift pump, fuel heater and I think grid heater solenoid.

As for the rest of the grounds like the engine sensors and the ECM ground we start tracing them down and found out they come together at the engine side battery ground not the terminal behind the starter.

So I need a good ol'....

[98whitelightnin 209 4 Vehicles]

Well, I was in a hurry and pullin the tubes as I got to the injector instead of pullin them and then the injectors and I gorgot one. It was a little tight but I wasnt thinking and popped it out, soon as I did it I knew I messed it up and sure enough the end was boogered up. I got a new one and it idles smooth as glass again.

[jlwelding 26]

Yes, reflashed old ecm there and new ecm, it was lined with sparkles of gold for 1400.00

[Mopar1973Man 7,205 5 Vehicles]

JL Welding... wild idea I came up with and as a matter of fact I found another person that has your problem too... But I started to think about it again and though about the shield that covers the signal leads into the VP44. The shield lead is ground at the ECM side but never completes the path to the VP44 end so there is technically no way to test this... But What if the shield is no longer doing its job of keeping AC noise out because its broke loose from the ground...

[balsip 17]

My experience with surging has been exhaust gas getting in the return line from a sticking open injector or sucking air on the supply line from the tank.The easy way to check is by putting a short section of clear PVC tubing in series where the supply to the VP44 has a short rubber hose to give flex when servicing. You need to watch carefully right from a cold start since the bubbles magnify by going via return line into the pickup chamber in the tank and come back worse in the supply side. A mechanical pump governor (the 89 to 93 Bosch VE44) will surge 650 to 1000 rpm while a a computer controlled governor like the VP44 may be worse. Remember those bubbles are compressed back to nil at 17,000psi and the pump sees a smaller fuel charge from the variable displacement injection pump. The governor sees the lower engine speed due to bubbles and tries to up the displacement and a surging cycle starts. Do not leave that PVC section in too long since it is not rated for diesel fuel.The reason I know the above is that two dealers, two VE44's on warranty, and 10 hours of Chrysler diagnostic authorization could not find my surging until I started talking to Cummins technical support directly myself. A dealer had gotten flakes of that brittle black Cummins paint into the injector lines when replacing my VE44 on safety campaign in 1996 causing exhaust gas to enter the return fuel line.

[rburks 51]

Yes, reflashed old ecm there and new ecm, it was lined with sparkles of gold for 1400.00

JL...Where did yo get Buy your ECM????.......................