*Oil Consumption 5.9 Cummins with 87K-Valvoline Premium Blue Restore Oil*

[Dieselfuture]

8 minutes ago, CUMMINSDIESELPWR said:

 

 

mine does this, and i know its the rear turbo seal as it wasnt doing it before i had the turbo rebuilt, after rebuild it was doing it.

One suppose it could be ether or

[Thomas]

                                                 

                           ***UPDATE-REPAIRS DONE-STILL DRINKS OIL-HELP NEEDED***

After a tedious and painful search for a valuable-trustworthy diesel repair shop in my area, I finally founded one and commended them to work on my truck. The final verdict pointed to multiple bad valve guides and steam seals being bad. So, a complete cylinder head overhaul was needed. Of course, I told the tech to ensure that the aforementioned was the only real problem causing the issue and that nothing else such as a bad turbo, abnormal compression readings, leak down test, signs of cylinder wall wash down, gouges, and nicks were not the real cause of the problem. Well, everything was checked ok (even the turbo). The compression and injector bench pressure test came back and founded within OEM spec as well. Other than carbon built over time above the pistons, everything else looked great. They ended up sending my cylinder head to the machinist for work, and in the meantime, I opted to upgrade the head gasket and replace the head bolts for APR head studs instead. After re-installation, they test drove my truck for about 500 miles and claimed that the oil level held for entirety of that time, which I had no doubts to not believe. They would even send me pictures of the oil dipstick every morning to confirm no oil usage. Well, here I am disappointed once again. Drove my truck from Miami to Virginia, about 1600 miles just to find out that it had used almost 1.6 qt of oil. Is not as bad as it used to, but you would think that after doing all that work and paying a good amount of $ the problem would had disappeared. You could notice a small tale of blue smoke in the morning during light acceleration then clears off. Same symptom as before but much less evident. I call them up and explained them the situation, they seemed puzzled about it and that the only thing left they could think of is the piston oil control rings being stuck. Good thing is their work is under warranty (just the head work though) for another year, or 15000 miles. I do not know what to do next since I am afraid that it might require overhaul and that would be another huge bill. Might as well order a new crane engine and install it myself in my next duty assignment, saving me big $ on labor. Truck just passed the 90K mark on the odometer. I am using Valvoline premium blue 15w40. What you all thing about this scenario, is it viable what they are claiming, oil control rings stuck ? Please advise and thank you.

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

That's a shock at 90k miles. The truck must of been short trip and ran cold often. That is the only reason I can see 90k miles engine using massive amount of oil. Even with 420k miles I'm using 1 quart every 10k miles which is about the time I change oil every 10k miles. 

 

This is why the high ilde software was wrote for these truck because idle time the exhaust temps can fall very low and then start to tar up rings and valves. This typically ends with bent push rods. 

 

The other part is most people are afraid to put there foot on the throttle and heat it up. I'll stand on mine once in awhile and run the pyrometer way up past 1,200*F just to burn the carbon out of everything. Typically I cruise at lower temps like 400 to 600 EGT's (45 to 65 MPH) where cylinder temps are cool enough to build carbon. Then later down the road I might pass someone then stand on the throttle and let her get hot. Can't constantly baby these trucks.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[Great work!]

Pull the exhaust manifold off and check for oil residue in the ports. You could run it that way too and see which cylinders smoke.

[Mopar1973Man]

That would work... But it will only show exhaust leaks. What about intake guides and seals?

 

Just easier to remove the valve cover and look for broken oil seals. If any are found the head will need to be removed and have new valve guides installed being the only way to ruin a oil seal is to have wore valve guides and the valve stems start to rock under the rocker arm and then the seals get brittle and tear apart. Again if you find any valve seal in the top of the head then it time to pull the head and have it sent to machine shop for repair and valve work. 

 

You cannot just install new seal and expect them to work with wore valve guides. It will ruin the new seal nearly instantly. I'll say after all the machine work, ARP 425 studs and new head gasket it was about $2,000 worth of repair and upgrade. This was back at 350k miles. Currently 421k miles and still rollling...

Edited September 22, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[Thomas]

2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

That would work... But it will only show exhaust leaks. What about intake guides and seals?

 

Just easier to remove the valve cover and look for broken oil seals. If any are found the head will need to be removed and have new valve guides installed being the only way to ruin a oil seal is to have wore valve guides and the valve stems start to rock under the rocker arm and then the seals get brittle and tear apart. Again if you find any valve seal in the top of the head then it time to pull the head and have it sent to machine shop for repair and valve work. 

 

You cannot just install new seal and expect them to work with wore valve guides. It will ruin the new seal nearly instantly. I'll say after all the machine work, ARP 425 studs and new head gasket it was about $2,000 worth of repair and upgrade. This was back at 350k miles. Currently 421k miles and still rollling...

Yes sir am gonna have to take the valve cover off and look inside. But what is strange to me is that I just got the truck back from the repair shop getting head work done.  And they founded all 12 exhaust, and 2 intake valve guides bad. They replaced them new guides and seals, no additional damage to the head founded during the pressure, magnafluxed test. Even the turbo was good. Unless am looking at a potential oil control rings being stuck now? . But yet, compression was good. 

 

On additional note sir, the blue smoke tale noted happens only during acceleration with low engine temperatures, after engine warms she seems to hold well with no blue smoke. I am running out of options here. Unless I try premium blue restore oil to try to get some of that carbon eliminated.

 

Any thoughts on that approach sir, using premium blue restore to loosen things up around the pistons? Ty

[Thomas]

Hello everyone, 

I am back on this thread for further advice, as mentioned before, I had to rebuild the entire head cylinder as result of an abnormal oil consumption I been experience for some time. The whole verdict led to “bad valve guides”.  Despite the repair, I am still yet to see any improvements. Last week, I pulled the exhaust manifold to investigate any further anomalies and founded a weird looking “black-sticky residue” on the upper walls of #1, #2, #3, and #4 exhaust ports. It was verily visible on #5, and #6 ports.

Can someone please comment, or shear your experience if you have seen this before and what might have led to this condition? I'm still trying to diagnose this oil consumption condition. Please see attached pictures. Ty

Edited November 27, 2020 by Thomas

[Mopar1973Man]

Valve guides and valve seal would be my next step. 

 

I had done mine back at 350k miles being the vlave guides wore enough to allow the valves to wiggle and then ruin the valve seal that are harden and no longer flexible. Be aware the head will require removal and new head gasket require. Don't just do new seal being the seal will most likely be ruined being the guides might be worn. No way to get around this.  

Edited November 27, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[Doubletrouble]

On 9/22/2020 at 12:58 PM, Thomas said:

And they founded all 12 exhaust, and 2 intake valve guides bad. They replaced them new guides and seals, no additional damage to the head founded during the pressure, magnafluxed test. Even the turbo was good. Unless am looking at a potential oil control rings being stuck now? . But yet, compression was good. 

Looks like that was already done. I would assume they cleaned the head before doing all the work. Those deposits would be since the head work was completed correct?

 To me this looks a little suspicious, why is this so jagged? Does not look normal to me but I've never had a Cummins apart before. Just my $.02

[Dieselfuture]

7 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

To me this looks a little suspicious, why is this so jagged?

 Does look odd but I don't think that's the problem. Black sticky stuff could be assembly lube still working it self out of the guide, or it could be that your new seals worked them selves up of the guides and got smashed by the retainers. Happened to me, had my head redone and short time after I had bunch of seals that popped off the seats and got hammered. Started rough with lots of smoke, took valve cover off and sure enough. Check them out, then make sure you have no vacuum leaks, they contribute to excessive blowby and in some cases lost oil.

[Mopar1973Man]

Take notice to the amount of carbon. Like this truck was short tripped a lot and never got up to operational temperature much. Because if you get up over 1,200 EGTs that carbon and oil wouldn't be there.

[Thomas]

On 11/27/2020 at 2:46 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

Valve guides and valve seal would be my next step. 

 

I had done mine back at 350k miles being the valve guides wore enough to allow the valves to wiggle and then ruin the valve seal that are harden and no longer flexible. Be aware the head will require removal and new head gasket require. Don't just do new seal being the seal will most likely be ruined being the guides might be worn. No way to get around this.  

What's strange to me is that I just did all that. The head was completely overhauled. I even pulled the valve cover gasket to double check if any valve seals worked themselves out few thousand miles post repair but they were all secured. They did not looked like the picture you shared with me. Only option I have left is pulling the engine and have someone overhaul it. 

On 11/27/2020 at 3:08 PM, Doubletrouble said:

Looks like that was already done. I would assume they cleaned the head before doing all the work. Those deposits would be since the head work was completed correct?

 To me this looks a little suspicious, why is this so jagged? Does not look normal to me but I've never had a Cummins apart before. Just my $.02

Yes. Although I did not had an opportunity to see the head being cleaned before work, I hope is not old oil residues. 

16 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

 Does look odd but I don't think that's the problem. Black sticky stuff could be assembly lube still working it self out of the guide, or it could be that your new seals worked them selves up of the guides and got smashed by the retainers. Happened to me, had my head redone and short time after I had bunch of seals that popped off the seats and got hammered. Started rough with lots of smoke, took valve cover off and sure enough. Check them out, then make sure you have no vacuum leaks, they contribute to excessive blowby and in some cases lost oil.

 

Totally makes sense with regards to the assembly fluid, may be it is just residuals from when the new guides were installed. I went through all vacuum lines and triple checked them before committing to the head overhaul. I did not find anything questionable. Now I am noticing excessive blue smoke during acceleration, clears out once warmed.  But I have not blow-by and the compression check checked ok on all cylinders. Lots of power and not rough idle. 

[Doubletrouble]

 How many miles since the head overhaul?

[Thomas]

39 minutes ago, Doubletrouble said:

 How many miles since the head overhaul?

I have only drove it about 2K, truck only have 92K on it. I thought it was the turbo but it was fine. 

[Doubletrouble]

 Did the shop install the head after the work was done? Just curious if proper torque procedure was done. 

[Mopar1973Man]

I wonder if the the valve guides were replaced?

[Thomas]

13 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

 Did the shop install the head after the work was done? Just curious if proper torque procedure was done. 

yes they did indeed. At least that's what they claimed, they applied the torque procedures in accordance to the ARP head studs instructions. I was not there unfortunately. Never again I let someone else touch this truck, I would much rather do it myself that way I know for sure what was done to it. Right now I am back in the limbo, and other than pulling the engine and have a highly rated builder rebuilt my engine, I don't know what else to look in the meantime. My plan now is to buy the most cheap oil brand to top off when needed, which by the way I founded to be the tractor supply brand "traveler 15w40" the cheapest. I would continue to drive this thing until something major happens. With all the money I have spent on this issue, I would have had enough money to get an overhauled engine and leave this problem in the past once and for all. What a nightmare this thing has been. 

6 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I wonder if the the valve guides were replaced?

 

yes sir they did. According to them all 12 valve guides and 2 intake guides were replaced. They also installed all new valve seals and a marine head gasket. While they were there they did compression and cylinder leak down test and nothing came abnormal. Reason why I did not opted to overhaul the engine just yet. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Like myself I had 18 of the 24 guide replaced. Now I'm kicking myself for not telling them to replace ALL 24 guides because now the the 6 guides are leaking a bit now again. Most likely have blew out the valve seals too to some point being my startup smoke is back after about 80k miles. I lose about 1 quart in about 7k miles now. Might have a few weeping leaks but nothing to really make a puddle now. New crank seal and re-sealed the gear case.