Pre DEF Reliability

[jltait]

I thought I did the right thing picking up a pre DEF 2011, but after a failed EGT sensor sidelined my new (to me) 4th Gen I started doing some reading. Some of the forums say the DEF trucks (2013+) are much better for the engine than the pre DEF trucks. Is this true, if so, what are my options to ensure my pre DEF truck make it to 250-300K miles.

[AH64ID]

Yes the trucks with DEF have much better reliability with the emissions equipment. The pre-DEF trucks use a LOT of EGR which clogs the intake and causes more frequent regens. 

 

Best thing you can do if you plan to keep it stock is to try to avoid short trips. The harder it works the better it does. 

 

Clean the turbo if you are unsure if it's been cleaned or not. 

 

It would also be a good idea to pull the intake and clean the grid heater and intake area. 

 

Otherwise there isn't much you can do to a stock truck. 

[jltait]

@AH64ID So it would seem that reducing the amount of EGR/EGR cycles would go a long way to enhancing reliability to a level on par with 2013+ trucks?

[AH64ID]

Just now, jltait said:

@AH64ID So it would seem that reducing the amount of EGR/EGR cycles would go a long way to enhancing reliability to a level on par with 2013+ trucks?

Yes reducing the EGR is a great idea, if you are able to. 
 

Duty cycle helps with that too. 

[Me78569]

Agree with everything above

[Mopar1973Man]

The bad side to the EGR... The fact is you just recirculating exhaust back into the air mixture in the cylinder to hopefully reduce the peak flame temperature which will make the NOx less. Bad part id the amount the of exhaust used and the amount of plugging of the manifold is a big issue.Tuner do exist on turning off the EGR software to prevent the use of the EGR all together without removing all that system. 

 

[jltait]

I appreciate the insight and help. This site claims the EGR can simply be disconnected with no ill effects, not even a CEL on 2010-2011 trucks. Can anyone verify this for me. Apparently 2012 and up trip a CEL, then over time go into de-rate mode. I'm leery to disconnect without being sure, some  have had to go to the dealer to get out of de-rate mode. I'd get a programmer to reduce the EGR cycles, but it's simply not in the budget right now, probably not for a good long time.

 

https://www.igotacummins.com/threads/7046-A-newbie-s-guide-to-4th-Gen-Cummins-Thread-Summaries-knowledge-base

[AH64ID]

It will set a CEL, at least it did on my buddies 2010. No other effects thou. 

 

[jltait]

I could probably deal with the CEL, as long as it runs normally(hopefully better). I have been using my OBDLink to monitor the EGT sensors and DPF differential, so I would be able to catch other codes with it. I think I will give that a try. Ultimately it seems I will need a programmer, so any input on what will be best to reduce EGR cycles partially or completely would be great.

[jltait]

I've been looking at this from different angles. I'm wondering if I simply removed the butterfly from the throttle valve, but left everything connected electrically, if that would substantially reduced the amount of EGR without throwing a CEL. It's my understanding that the throttle valve closes to help bring flow in from the EGR. It would seem to me that without a bufferfly to close, the engine would continue to ingest more fresh air and less EGR. Does this make any sense, or am I sounding like I'm smoking crack? I changed the oil a few hundred miles ago, and it was literally blacker than the ace of spades within days. My 2nd gen looks as good or better with 5-6k miles, dis-heartening.

[AH64ID]

Most modern engines turn the oil black very quick, even ones that have EGR missing. It’s also a function of modern oil making soot stay suspended and harder to filter.. but that also means it does less damage. 
 

 

I’ve heard you can build a block off plate for the EGR tube too. 

[That Guy]

I suspect my egr may be starting to clog, or something to that effect, on the 2012. Right at 90k. Has started showing high NOx codes periodically in the last 2 years. 

 

The general operation of egr's is in the idle-cruising throttle range. At higher throttle, they typically are closed for more air/power. 

 

Disconnecting/deleting the throttle valve will throw a code, don't know if it will go into limp. The whole system goes through a self check.

 

Operation happen when:

coolant must be above 140

aftertreatment must be in 'normal' mode

 

system test happens when:

must be running at least 2 minutes

has to be fairly steady highway speed for ~25min (it doesn't say specifically but most are in the 35-45 range for a lower threshold)

coolant must be above 180 for at least 1 minute.

aftertreatment must be in 'normal' mode

 

May give you some insight as well.

Emissions control reset.pdf

 

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by That Guy

[Mopar1973Man]

Like I no longer even consider deletes anymore. I've found a few tuners that delete the software but leaves all the hardware in place. It will reduce the regen cycles amounts and the EGR is shut off. Why bother with removing all the smog stuff to get hassled later for trying to sell deleted truck. Here in Idaho you cannot trade in a deleted truck. 

[jltait]

On 9/9/2020 at 9:59 PM, That Guy said:

I suspect my egr may be starting to clog, or something to that effect, on the 2012. Right at 90k. Has started showing high NOx codes periodically in the last 2 years. 

 

The general operation of egr's is in the idle-cruising throttle range. At higher throttle, they typically are closed for more air/power. 

 

Disconnecting/deleting the throttle valve will throw a code, don't know if it will go into limp. The whole system goes through a self check.

 

Operation happen when:

coolant must be above 140

aftertreatment must be in 'normal' mode

 

system test happens when:

must be running at least 2 minutes

has to be fairly steady highway speed for ~25min (it doesn't say specifically but most are in the 35-45 range for a lower threshold)

coolant must be above 180 for at least 1 minute.

aftertreatment must be in 'normal' mode

 

May give you some insight as well.

Emissions control reset.pdf 169.83 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks, this has some good information, for sure!

 

Quote

Disconnecting/deleting the throttle valve will throw a code, don't know if it will go into limp. The whole system goes through a self check.

 

It's my understanding that 2012's will go into Limp/de-rate, but the 2010-11's will set a CEL worst case.

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Like I no longer even consider deletes anymore. I've found a few tuners that delete the software but leaves all the hardware in place. It will reduce the regen cycles amounts and the EGR is shut off. Why bother with removing all the smog stuff to get hassled later for trying to sell deleted truck. Here in Idaho you cannot trade in a deleted truck. 

 

This Is what I want to accomplish, Leave everything in place, but reduce or completely eliminate the amount of EGR going into the engine. I wish I could come up with some solid information on a way to do this without spending on a programmer. I have read that the plunger in the EGR valve can be removed. I wonder if I did that and removed the throttle valve butterfly if that would do it, or if I would cause more harm than good. I don't mind spending a reasonable amount of money on a programmer, but I can't right now. 

[That Guy]

If you disabled the system in the software, it would be fine. If it isn't then the computer is not only actuating the valves but looking for a change in the emissions levels when it does its thing. If it doesn't see the levels change according to its predetermined limits, it throws codes.

 

I'm still considering deleting my 2012. I have the room for the parts I take off to sit in the attic of the barn for later use if need be, don't intend to sell the truck though.

Edited September 11, 2020 by That Guy

[jltait]

@That GuyI am pretty sure you are correct about 2012's and up, but according to the forum I linked earlier in this thread, 2010-2011's can have the EGR disconnected with a CEL worst case, not even a CEL best case. I just wish I could find a detailed how to. Does the EGR Valve, EGR Solenoid, and Throttle body all get disconnected, or just the valve. Also, I see different opinions on how this affects Regen cycles, some say it helps due to better burn in the cylinder, others say it will regen more due to the soot that is re-burned now going through the DPF. It's all very confusing

[That Guy]

Try it. Worst case, plug it back in?

 

Try the egr and throttle valve. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by That Guy

[jltait]

4 hours ago, That Guy said:

Try it. Worst case, plug it back in?

 

Try the egr and throttle valve. 

 

I want to, but still trying to overcome my fear of setting a hard code that will require dealer intervention, even though I've been told it won't.

I actually have been thinking that the solution that may prevent a ton of CEL codes, would be to take out the throttle valve butterfly, leaving it plugged in to actuate, but not restrict intake air without the throttle blade in place. Then make a restrictor plate to sandwich at the intake manifold under the EGR valve. The intent would be to limit the EGR flow substantially, but allow enough through for the system to think it's working. 

[AH64ID]

Even if it sets a code you can take it to your friendly local auto parts store and borrow a code reader. 

[That Guy]

By just removing the throttle blade, you are affecting how much the egr will work greatly. On my little obd reader, Ive seen as much as 8-10 inches of vacuum.

 

As I understand it, on a 2011, disconnecting the egr wont throw a code. However, according to that service bulletin I found, if it goes through a test cycle, it may throw a NOx or low egr flow code. That code it may throw can be reset with the most of the basic scanners.

 

A OBD dongle off amazon can be had for ~$10. A copy of torque pro is like $5. For $15, you will have a decent code reader (deleter) and a data logger. You can also upload some custom flashes to the various computers in the truck. I'm unsure if it could possibly tune, but I have reprogrammed my Prius to get rid of the annoying back up beeper (it's in the cabin) and the passenger seat belt warning on account of my backpack will set it off. I have heard of others setting up various functions like rolling down windows by the key fob and such.