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Need truck to be running better, less smoke


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Hello all. So thew truck runs pretty good but I know it's not at it'd potential. I want it to not smoke as much and tune it properly so if I'm driving nicely I can get good mpg but then have power when wanted or needed. 

 

Just bought it about 3 weeks ago.

 

Here are the upgrades:

stock turbo compounded with a bw s366

225 DAP injectors

Hot Rod VP44

Air Dog 200

110# valve springs

.93 fuel connecting tubes

5inch turbo back exhaust

Quadzilla 4k

 

Any and all suggestions are welcomed. At WOT this thing makes an insane amount of smoke even when its making boost. I don't think it makes enough boost though as it should and it also doesn't start making boost til like 21-2200 rpms... May be a boost leak on a boot as well. I'm thinking of starting with a new programmer that isn't a damn 4k.. since the fuel stretch by default is twice the max a regular quad can do. I also think the valves may need to be adjusted as I hear a high pitched rattling at idle.

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Did you go through the Quadzilla tuning procedure? Put it in valet mode. Start at say 70%. Stomp it from a dead stop. Does it smoke bad? If yes drop valet one percentage. If no ad one. Once smoke is under control start your fuel curve at that percentage. Then start playing with timing. Don’t use wiretap until you have the canbus fueling dialed in. 

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Post up your tune your running on the Quad. 

 

I'm behind you with 150 HP injectors and run completely clean. The biggest factor is too many are trying to build low down power but tend to be too advanced in timing on the 1,500 RPM band. As the cetane here is rising because winters coming I've been retarding timing because the bucking is starting to show up as cetane rises the ignition quality goes up, less timing is needed. To clean up smoke you need a good retard curve to spool quickly. Again people get to wrapped up in advancing timing they forget to retard enough to launch cleanly. Currently my economy tune is starting at 13° and work up +4.5 per band. I was so impress in this change that on level 2 yesterday climbing a 7% grade and managed to spin the tires free at mere 1,800 RPM and heavy throttle. This is due to the deep retard I built into the tune in the lower RPM range this place more flame on the turbine and spools quickly net results is the tires can't hold the torque... Now once the turbo is spun up then it kick back over to advanced timing and continues to power up more. Reaching 15 PSI of boost and the wire tap follows with more power and turbo is already spun good and just continues to build more power. 

 

I've got to ask another important question what sized tires are you running? This is a huge factor if power gets out or not. If your final ratio (after tires) is lower than 3.55 then your power is trapped in the driveline and transmission. Tire sizes and gear ratio make a huge impact on power and performance. Like Myself I've got 3.55 gears in and running 245/75 R16 tires. This comb creates a final ratio of 3.69:1 to the ground after tires. Hence my power is place to the road not to the transmission. 

 

Don't ask... I've manage to create enough power last year to break the teeth off the 5th gear at 80 MPH

DSCF4627.JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just saw your post today MoparMan and had to subscribe since I think this site will definitely come in handy in the future. So, could you give me some input from my new possible idea for the truck? So, I'm wanting mainly good mpg's, hoping to break 20+ on the freeway at 55-65 but also have power if I wanna have fun and pull on the freeway or something.

 

So, I have a guy who I've been talking to and his goals require twins and I think my goals would be possible with his setup. We're thinking of trading over everything. He has a damn near new 64/73.5/14 and a smarty mm3 with tunes for 125s and that turbo. I currently have big injectors and would be downgrading for sure regardless but I'm wondering if I'll get what I desire out of the truck with the Smarty (no wiretap), smaller injectors, and a single 64mm turbo. Idc about cost of my setup vs his since I bought hte truck with it all. I just want it to stop smoking and I really don't need the huge injectors, twins, and a adren 4k. I need this truck to last. If possible, let me know what you think and if my goals will be achievable and if I should do this.

 

Also found out 1 possible big issue with the smoke.. At least the insane excessive smoke. I found like 4 boost leaks. 3 spots on the custom intake horn (yeah I know stupid to do custom but I didn't build the truck) and then the manifold plate has a leak or 2.

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I would say get rid of the Adrenaline 4K and get a regular Adrenaline.  I am running 150 hp injectors with the stock hx35 turbo and have no smoke (unless I really get on it and even then it clears up pretty quickly).  I think the brand of injectors have something to do with the amount of smoke too.  Depending on what brand you have they may never run clean.

 

I'd try the regular Adrenaline first and see if that cleans it up and if not, then you could swap out the other stuff.

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ditch the 4k box.  a street driven truck has no place running it.  

 

if the injectors are not DDP brand then you should be able to clean it up fine.  

 

 

 

the 125's + smart + 64 setup is not great in my mind,  I would want way more injector than 125's.

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Agreed. 

 

Stock turbo HX35w is a 54/60/12. I'm only running a HX35/40 hybrid (60/60/12) with 150 HP injectors. I make more than enough power to tear the tires off the rear of my truck even in 4th gear (NV4500). The biggest factor is having the proper timing over the entire span of fuel map.

 

I would of opted away from the hotrod pump. Adds extra challenge to timing being the hotrod pump tend to start out advanced. Been best with a standard SO pump and used a turner. SO pump can fuel way past 600 HP. Several have done it. Kind of like my high popped injectors requires more timing. Added challenges of tuning proper.

 

Kind of like my mod of going to 150 HP injectors but not popped at 305 bar like most (remember stock is 310 bar) I popped at 320 bar. This cleaned up a huge amount of smoke and EGT's are very controllable. Even hauling my RV up to 7,000 heading to Arizona I never had any smoke or EGT's issues and came in with 14.7 MPG on that trip. 

 

Dodge Spec on pop pressures from the Dodge FSM (293 bar low limit, 310 bar stock, 327 bar upper limit) Anything below 260-270 bar is a loss typically idle speed starts to rise and ECM  is typically close or already fully defueled at idle.

 

  • Quadzilla Adrenaline
  • HX35/40 Turbo
  • 4 inch exhaust
  • AirDog 150 (w/ AirDog 165 4G pump)
  • BHAF
  • DAP 150 HP injectors (popped at 320 bar)
  • 245/75 R16 tires (30.5" inch tires) to raise my final ratio. (3.69:1 after tires).

 

Even 4th and 5th gen truck have troubles catching me. Like posted above made enough power to break the teeth off 5th gear. You be surprised what even 150's will do with proper tuning. 

 

The biggest thing that destroys the power. Is lifts and oversized tires. This typically lowers the final ratio and increases the loading on the driveline. When your final ratio after tires falls below 3.40 you just lost huge amounts of power. Does nothing for MPG's too. Optimal final ratio after everything should be 3.55 to 3.73 to the ground. This combo really does reduce the smoke a bunch, EGT's are much lower, Engine loads are lower and MPG's are higher. Give you an idea at 66 MPH I'm at perfect 2,000 RPM. Right in the middle of the power band and just drop my foot and she is off to the races. 

Edited by Mopar1973Man
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2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

ditch the 4k box.  a street driven truck has no place running it.  

 

if the injectors are not DDP brand then you should be able to clean it up fine.  

 

 

 

the 125's + smart + 64 setup is not great in my mind,  I would want way more injector than 125's.

yeah so he has 125s and it cleans up smoke pretty quick with his setup although he lost a lift pump so the truck loses power after a short time. I currently have either 200's or 225 DAP injectors. Would that be too much if I went with the 64 and smarty mm3? And would I be happy with the Smarty? I know it doesn't wiretap but if I can still have power and much better MPG's along with less smoke then I'd keep those injectors since they're only a year old maybe.

 

Also, I have 35s on the truck that are pretty new. I like the look in all honesty and personally not sure I'd like the look with a more stock tire size lol. Definitely won't be going bigger nor lifting the truck. It sits high enough stock and leveled and I love the look.

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a tune for 125's will not be smoke free for 200's or 225's.  

 

 

Ditch the 4k box get a regular adr box with a tune for your injectors.  with the quad you can tune yourself, with the smarty you will need to fork out $$ to tune it to your injectors.

 

 

Smoke control is in the tune.  I could run smoke free with my old 7 x .012's.  

 

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19 minutes ago, YeaImDylan said:

Also, I have 35s on the truck that are pretty new. I like the look in all honesty and personally not sure I'd like the look with a more stock tire size lol.

 

Final ratio is way too low with 3.55 axles like 3.27 roughly. You need to consider swapping to 4.10 gear in front and rear. This will get you back to a good final ratio and reduce a ton of smoke and EGTs. As you go bigger the ratio ALWAYS goes down. Smaller tires make the final ratio go up. 

 

Another problem is the geometry of the front axles are typically not right after a adding tires and lift kit. When you lift the axle actually your pushing it down farther.Now the caster angle is more neutral and the thrust angle is to the left more being neither the control arms are too short and the track bar to get anlges correct. 

 

Then Rotational mass is the next. For every one pound of rotational mass you ditch is like 8 pounds off the frame. So for every one pound of wheels and tire mass is like adding 8 pounds on the frame. Might look cool but add up in working loads. Just be aware... 

Edited by Mopar1973Man
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1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Final ratio is way too low with 3.55 axles like 3.27 roughly. You need to consider swapping to 4.10 gear in front and rear. This will get you back to a good final ratio and reduce a ton of smoke and EGTs. As you go bigger the ratio ALWAYS goes down. Smaller tires make the final ratio go up. 

 

Another problem is the geometry of the front axles are typically not right after a adding tires and lift kit. When you lift the axle actually your pushing it down farther.Now the caster angle is more neutral and the thrust angle is to the left more being neither the control arms are too short and the track bar to get anlges correct. 

 

Then Rotational mass is the next. For every one pound of rotational mass you ditch is like 8 pounds off the frame. So for every one pound of wheels and tire mass is like adding 8 pounds on the frame. Might look cool but add up in working loads. Just be aware... 

This topic warrants an article.  I’ve been following your posts and this topic is on my short list to deal with on my truck for sure.  I keep gathering more info from your comments and this is a serious bit of business right here.

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1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I've gotta get some free time where my thought are fresh and create it. This is a super common issue.

That’s an article that could draw a lot of traffic to the site.  Super big issue.  There are some cool online calculators that could be included into that so people could do their own math.

 

I am planning to make a run to Hooper Rear ends, I’m sure you know the place, and take their class on this topic just for fun.

1 hour ago, leety said:

That’s an article that could draw a lot of traffic to the site.  Super big issue.  There are some cool online calculators that could be included into that so people could do their own math.

 

I am planning to make a run to Hooper Rear ends, I’m sure you know the place, and take their class on this topic just for fun.

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/07/30/tire-math-calculating-the-effects-of-tire-diameter-on-final-drive-ratio/ This is a descent write up but I think it’s light on info

 

this is a fun calculator https://tiresize.com/gear-ratio-calculator/

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So I think i'm gonna go with a regular Quad Adrenaline rather than the 4k or the guy's smarty mm3 since I'd have to shell out money to re vin it and also get new tunes. I also am probably gonna trade him for his turbo setup which is the BW 64/73.5/14 turbo. With a regular quad tuned correctly and that turbo do you think I'd be good with my 225 DAP injectors? I won't be going to 4.10's anytime in the future ( probably honestly won't ever) and no plans to lift the truck either.

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Well, I don't plan on trying to push 700hp or anything nor do I tow so I really don't need the twins. They also spool up real late but part of that may be due to boost leaks on the manifold plate as well as the custom intake elbow.. Highest PSI I've seen was like 48 but even then I don't wanna be pushing that often or even over that if solving those leaks makes a ton more boost.. I don't have the money to go pay for someone to replace a head gasket. I think a single that is above stock would suit my needs and spool up quicker once I get the intake issues sorted out.

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that 64 single will not spool faster than the hx35 s366 setup.    a 64 is geared more to mid to upper rpm power as it is not a small turbo for a vp truck.

 

your twin setup should spool extremely fast.  time to figure out why it isn't.

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Let me enlighten you on boost leaks. 

 

I took the wastegate hose over the turbo and left it OPEN. Then went over to the manifold and REMOVED a single bolt. Then cranked it up and drove it. With the MASSIVE boost leak, I can hear the air whistling clearly. Only lost a mere 7 PSI (maxed out 41) or so. EGT only rose a mere +100*F more. The truck was very drivable yet but blowing air out massive. No excessive smoke or nothing. Just loss of about 7 PSI of boost about 100 degrees hotter that's it. 

 

 

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With a proper tune on the quad a boost leak you will not see big issues since the quad is pulling fueling based on boost levels.    This is because the quadzilla is waiting for boost to add fuel.  each psi level is a  "step limit " on the amount of fuel.

 

However with an edge or a bad tune on the quad the tune is effectively trying to add fuel to get boost up, which is the opposite of what a proper quad tune is doing.    

 

OP might be seeing a big difference due to the boost leaks depending on how the tune is setup for his truck.  If it is a heavy fuel tune then I could see egt's and smoke as a result of a large number of boost leaks.

 

 

 

 

 

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Well **** then I wonder if it's just the tuner that's giving me most of my issues. We sprayed soapy water down on all boots and what not and the only leaks we found were on the intake horn (custom, weld had 2 holes in it :duh:) and proper bolts weren't used to bolt it to the grid delete block. Then, there was another leak near cylinder 4 or 5 on the intake plate. I'm guessing the gasket may have blown or it's not torqued down. Maybe its warped or over-torqued. The guy with the 64mm turbo was building boost around 1700rpm and mine don't build til like 21-2200. He was also able to rev it and build some boost. I don't get anything. Should I try to tune the 4k down super low on fueling side and see if that makes me build boost earlier and help the engine not bog down in the lower rpm's? Also, I found out it's not a stock turbo so not an hx35. Previous owner I texted the other day and he told me the 2nd turbo is a 364.5/475. The other turbo is an s366. My apologies for not mentioning this new information earlier.

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s364 s475 is a 64 75 twin setup.  Not sure where th s366 is coming from as you have now listed 3 turbos.  s364, s475, and s366/  

 

You need to figure out what you have before you do anything.    

 

the 4k is a race only box and shoul dnot be on a street driven truck.

Edited by Me78569
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