Quadzilla Timing - wanna share some info.

[Mopar1973Man]

I wanted to share some of my secrets im still learning about Quadzilla timing. I'm finding that you can start as low as 13° on the 1.5k band. This really does build way bottom end power. Im still running +4.5 step up to the next. I was playing with my economy tune and when I drop every band by -1° it really did make my truck want to rip the tires off. Boost builds super fast. Now keep in mind my injectors 7 x 0.010 @ 320 bar. Then ive got winterized fuel and daytime weather of barely 40°F.

 

Stepping up to 14° or 15° in the 1.5k really took the power down for me under current fuel and temperature. 

 

As for my summer tune as the winterized fuel came on really start making it buck and pop in the 3k realm which is a sign of over advancement. This why I shift every down 1°. Originally I started at 15° and +4.5 step up worked good in the summer with LOW cetane and warm weather. As the winterized fuel starts it slowly raising the cetane hence why my summer tune starts bucking in the upper RPMs. 

 

Then today coming back from town I stopped and dropped that 1.5k to 13° and step up +4.5 now it jumps up to 15 PSI of boost, wire tap jumps in and it feels like a continuous power all the way very smooth and pulls so hard in 3rd I could hear the tires giving in and starting skip and spin.

 

Remember neither the Quadzilla or ECM cannot sense cetane changes so when the tune just don't have the power because cetane change some times its best to try a bit of retard. Lower the cetane and warm weather the more you can advance timing.

[Threadzy]

After reading your comment on another thread on timing I changed mine around a bit.  13,17,22,26. As you stated. Spools faster and pulls harder with less throttle input. Truck is running really well! I love being about to tweak my tune. My previous timing was 14,18,23,27. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Problem is you need a good amount of low end retard to spool the turbo. This is done by retarding the timing more flame and expanding gases are sent to the turbo and get it spooled up. Now when your spooled up and get the boost building now you can switch over to high timing to burn the fuel more complete. This now brings the flame front more down the cylinder wall if you over advance. Funny part is you really do see the engine oil temp jumps. The other thing is don't drop the wire tap in too low. Like I'm running 15 PSI before wire tap jumps in. Totally smokeless being the turbo is spooled good, CANBus is starting to rise to its end (my tune stops at 125% on CANBus), once the wiretap jumps in the tires are really starting to want to spin. 

 

[Doubletrouble]

 I don't know if I haven't had enough coffee yet or what but that made my brain hurt. 

 This quadzilla, timing, wire tap stuff confuses me. Hence why I am leary of getting a tuner. 

[Threadzy]

I’ve got about 1 1/2 year warranty left on my pump. No tap for me. ? my timing reduction was set at 60% and 5 degrees. After adjusting to my new timing values I went back to 50% at 5 degrees. That helped with takeoff to. Had to much retard. Kept my offset the same at 2. My canbus starts at 84. This is my daily tune. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Threadzy

[Mopar1973Man]

On 10/30/2020 at 9:09 AM, Doubletrouble said:

 I don't know if I haven't had enough coffee yet or what but that made my brain hurt. 

 This quadzilla, timing, wire tap stuff confuses me. Hence why I am leary of getting a tuner. 

 

Give me some time ill figure out a way to explain better.

[leety]

3 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Give me some time ill figure out a way to explain better.

I'm with you @DoubletroubleI need to take the ground zero M73M class as well where do I sign up?

On 10/30/2020 at 8:09 AM, Doubletrouble said:

 I don't know if I haven't had enough coffee yet or what but that made my brain hurt. 

 This quadzilla, timing, wire tap stuff confuses me. Hence why I am leary of getting a tuner. 

I'm with you.  I just got the Quad tuner, now to put it in and figure it out.  That's the rub.

[Mopar1973Man]

The simplest way to look at timing. 

 

The more your retard timing under power the quicker the turbo will spool. This is due to the fact the fuel is lit off late so the burning flame front is more so pushing out the exhaust manifold and spinning the turbine up. Now if you advance the timing the flame front is started in the cylinder as the piston is still coming up. Giving more time for the fuel to heat in the cylinder turning to vapor, to BANG! Being more of the flame front is consumed in the cylinder the cylinder walls typically get a bit warmer pushing the oil temp upward. Most of the flame is spent and this is why with advanced timing the EGT's fall. It's a balance between good retardation that gives that good down low spool then enough advancement to consume all your fuel before getting the exhaust stroke. 

 

Going in deep now...

 

I use engine load and engine oil temperature to manage timing placement. Like if I over advance my oil temp will rise upward to about 190°F to 195°F but like now with my knowledge my oil temp floats around 170°F. Even while under WOT and high EGT's (1,200 to 1,400°F)  this give me more buffer room for standing on it longer before oil temp cannot protect the pistons. When I unwind again and come back to cruise state I can see the slight rise in oil temp but in a few miles it will settle back to ~170°F roughly. Now as for timing if your going the wrong direction the engine load will RISE. If it does rise then you need to reverse your timing. If your advancing too much the engine load will rise due to what know as negative torque. This is when the piston is still travelling towards TDC and you inject too early the fuel heats, vaporizes, then starts to burn before TDC occurs and now the expanding fuel is push again the upward moving piston making "negative torque" till it breaks over TDC. This does show up as a higher engine load and is counter productive. If the timing is too retarded the injection event, vapor to bang occurs too late and the expanding gases are not build pressure enough to do the work. This also shows as high engine loads but... There is an audible difference retarded timing that is too deep will be like no injection knock at all it dead quiet.

 

Over advanced will be tinny and fairly louder injection knock. Way too far advanced the engine will start to buck and miss. This occurred to me in the fall of the year. This is due to the fact cetane went UP. Fuel ignition quality went up and requires LESS advancement. This why I was shifting downward -2° across the board. Now that I'm down to winterized fuel with a start for 13° at 1.5k RPM its down low it will dig in and pull like a crazed mule. Stock ECM with IAT signal when the IAT drops below 80°F it adds like a full +3° to +4° hence why stock ECM software get poor MPG through the winter. As you seen I RETARDED my timing as cetane went up, not ADVANCED! So all you with a Quadzilla Adrenaline don't bother trying to figure in IAT temps alone. Figure against your load, speed, cetane of fuel your using, etc. Colder IAT temps don't help MPG at all. Colder the air becomes as winter sets in for me I'll have to advance again. (Hua?!) Yup. Being cetane rose during the warm weather it ignites super easy now it over advanced. But now have super cold day like -20°F to -40*F outside the IAT will drop to about +20°F for my truck at that point I'll have to advance the timing again (+1° across the board) slightly because I need more time to heat the fuel, to get it to vapor, then go bang! Keep in mind the higher cetane is lower the BTU's per gallon.  As you see I'm based more about cetane and the conditions I run in. It more about matching timing to cetane and it requirements than IAT  as a solo value. Colder the air becomes in the cylinder the more timing you'll need... Then warmer the air becomes the less timing you'll need vs. cetane of your fuel. Too cold of air will retard the ignition timing. This why some of us use winter fronts to block out the super cold air. 

 

REMEMBER! - More cetane booster or anti-gel product you use RETARD even more! As cetane rises the ignition will occur quicker. Again higher cetane is LOWER BTU's! Less power per gallon of fuel.

 

Like my summer tune I can float 23° at 2k RPM's. Now in this stage of winter with temps between +20°F and 40°F with Winterized #2 Diesel I came down to 19° to 20° at 2k cruise state. Get down into minus weather I'll most likely add +1° across the board. 

 

Just remember you trying to HEAT the diesel fuel to flash point at the right time as the piston is just about ready to break over TDC and be fully expanding gases pushing on the piston with little flame front left on the exhaust stroke. (Reduced EGT's and maximize MPG!)

 

My special condition. 

 

Being I'm using 7 x 0.010 injectors popped at 320 bar. There is a bit of retarding in the injectors being the VP44 needs slightly more pressure to open the injectors. (4,500 @ 310 bar vs. 4,640 @ 320 bar) about a 1° retarded. 

 

Few things...

• Bigger than stock injectors will require some advancement to timing. 
• Injectors that are wore out typically will be advanced already being they open at a much lower pressure. 
• High cetane is actually quicker to ignite but lower in BTU's per gallon. Should retard timing when using high cetane.
• Higher than 310 bar injector pop pressure will retard timing, dropping below 293 bar will advance timing but make the fuel droplets bigger.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[LorenS]

I've been wondering about the why higher cetane diesel has fewer BTUs per pound.  I decided to see if I could find something semi-scientific that made sense to me, and found this:

https://www.gofurthergofs.com/Portals/0/Assets/Knowledge/Whitepapers/Diesel-Fuel-Cetane-Number.pdf
Keep in mind they may make some money selling additive.

 

An excerpt:  "How can a higher cetane number be achieved? There are two ways to gain a higher cetane number.

1. The first is to do it during the refining process. Refining a high cetane diesel fuel usually results in a fuel with a higher API gravity rating and a lower density. A low density fuel contains fewer BTUs and consequently provides less power to a diesel engine. A typical gravity for #2 diesel fuel is in the 32-34 range compared to a high-cetane fuel which typically has a gravity rating in the 36-38 range and more closely resembles a #1 diesel fuel. When a higher cetane number is gained through the refining process, it usually means the fuel contains fewer BTUs, resulting in less horsepower and poorer fuel economy. Another way to gain a higher cetane number…
2. A higher cetane number can also be derived through the addition of cetane improver chemistry (2-ethyl hexyl nitrate). When cetane improver is added to a #2 diesel fuel, the result is a high-cetane-number fuel with more power and fuel efficiency than a similar fuel derived through the refining process. A side benefit is that #2 fuels usually cost less, too."

My guess is that in refining they remove more wax, thus removing BTUs but that wax is some of the slower-burning fuel - and quicker to solidify in your fuel filter.  When treating #2 with a Cetane improver the wax stays there to provide energy, but the fancy hexyl nitrates still allow for an easy start to the burn cycle.

[Mopar1973Man]

 

Most of this article is from the ASTM testing labs document. In a nutshell here is what my local fuel do when I checked the specs. The dark green is the summer fuel and then winterized fuel up here is the light green. The point at which the two lines of the same color cross is the cetane number. (Cennex Fuel)

 

Now just to really blow your mind now that cetane is being discussed true racing of diesel you need high cetane fuels. You need a fuel that is super quick to ignite and completely burn off at 4,000 RPM's. This is why you see all the drag truck rolling serious coal. They must dump huge amount of this high cetane fuel to make up for the loss of BTU energy. Same concept with gasoline racing they switch from gasoline to alcohol because the fuel has to be quick but alcohol has way less BTU's vs gasoline. Hence why the long duration cams and big carbs. Get that fuel and air mixture jammed in the cylinder. So during the winter up here the fuel BTU's drop nearly 10k BTU's. Just to point out that with high cetane fuel I'm now 5% higher in engine load to just travel the same highway at the same 65 MPH. This point out the reduction of BTU's. 

 

Back to the timing part...

 

So now with winter coming and colder weather. The engine block temperature will be the same for the most part. Thermal efficiency you want your coolant temperature high. 190*F is a stock thermostat but even a 6.7L Cummins has a 200*F option that will fit our 5.9L. High your coolant temperature the better thermal efficiency between the cylinder and the coolant jacket. If you coolant is too cold then the flame energy is absorbed by the coolant jacket by a certain percentage. With high coolant jacket temps part of this heat energy is returned to the cylinder to heat the air and get the fuel to convert from liquid to vapor (flash point) to BANG! (ignition). Here is where the winter fronts and the high temp thermostat comes in. Now your artificially creating a mini-summer like condition with blocking out the intercooler and using hotter thermostat. Now with subzero temperatures the extra heat will create slightly faster ignition of the fuel hence why again I would choose to limit my advancement.  

 

REMEMBER - It takes heat to warm the diesel fuel to 150°F to 180°F the flash point of the fuel, make the fuel turn to vapor and go bang. Larger droplets take more heat and long duration to ignite. Low pop pressure is also negative effect being once your below 280 bar or so the spray pattern degrades and the droplet get bigger. Taking longer to burn. 

COLD AIR IS NOT A DAILY DRIVER FRIEND!

 

This one reason why I will continue to point out optimal temperature IAT is about 100°F to 140°F this is plenty warm enough for getting even low cetane to go bang in a quick order. So now your seeing what I do to ensure good winter time operation with the least amount of loss. Just to point out that stock ECM tune below 80°F IAT temp the ECM advances 4° worth of timing. Another reason for the drop of MPG during the winter. Also take note I RETARDED timing for the winter because of high cetane! Timing wise on the Quadzilla its about getting to the lowest ENGINE LOAD possible for all the RPM band. Another way to pick it apart. Work with each RPM band separate.  So if your starting out with 1.5k RPM band set it for 13° and then go out and see how setting your cruise in top gear at 1.5k RPM. Now measure your engine load in cruise state. (Remember cruise timing is ADDED on top of the 13°.) Then go up to 2k band and set it for 17° and test that the same way. Between cruise timing and the max timing you can create exactly what your truck wants for timing. Not many need to go to 2,5k RPM band for cruise state but I'm one that does being with 30 inch tires and final ratio at 3.69:1 that puts me at 2.5k RPM at 82 MPH. 

 

Even again with high RPM's travelling down the interstate 84 in Boise. I can safely twist the 2.5k RPM and still rock 19 to 21 MPG. I've done it many times. Winter or summer. Tough part is getting it to be able to reach a cruise state at that high but I've actually done it a few times. I know I've got a few screenshots of cruising at 80 MPH and still getting below 25% engine load then stepping up to 25° to 26° cruise timing. 

 

Now just to show you the basic concept of compression ignition using a fire piston. This is exactly what our diesel engines do compress air to get enough heat to ignite fuel.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[LorenS]

I understand the chart, I'm just pointing out that there is more than one way to raise the Cetane rating, and that chart is likely from "Method 1" at the refinery by removing less volatile hydrocarbons.  I mean, there's a reason we don't burn #6 Fuel Oil despite energy of 152k BTU/gallon, but giant, slow piston speed marine engines do.

 

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

optimal temperature IAT is about 100°F to 140°F

I have noticed this, too.  My grille inserts are installed!  I truly believe that unless I was pulling a trailer through town in summer with the A/C on, I could leave them on all year.

 

On 10/29/2020 at 11:46 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

I stopped and dropped that 1.5k to 13° and step up +4.5 now it jumps up to 15 PSI of boost

Question:  how do we know when to drop the base timing, and not just increase the "Low PSI Timing Reduct"?  Is that because it also affects the low PSI, high RPM operation?

[Mopar1973Man]

I just made the run to Council, ID to go vote. Just with the morning temperature at +7°F I added more timing. Bumped it back up to (cruise timing) 21° at 2,000 RPM. This dropped my engine oil temp another -5°F and 163°F oil temperature even after climbed a 6% grade.

 

Intake temperature was 75 to 87°F (Reaching that low point)

Engine Oil Temperature 160°F to 168°F even after 54 miles.

Fuel Temperature was 63°F to 77°F

Engine Load was 16 to 22%

Timing was 21° at 2,000 RPM

Coolant was 188°F to 195°F

 

Need to get my winter fronts installed... 

 

[LorenS]

51 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

with the morning temperature at +7°F I added more timing

??  I thought you retarded timing because it's cold?  Perhaps I misunderstand the +7.  Is it 7 degrees WARMER, or just "7 degrees F"?

[Mopar1973Man]

Just 7°F outside. Period...

 

I had to add just a touch more because it was so cold. Highway was frosty and freezing fog off and on. 

[Doubletrouble]

@Mopar1973Man, that was an excellent explanation of timing and it's effects on a diesel engine. Can you possibly put that in the articles section or something so we could access it easily? I will definitely be re-reading it and taking notes!

 It really cleared up alot for me. I come from mainly gassers and my mindset was much different in thoughts of timing. Much appreciated! 

[Mopar1973Man]

That was my plan. I wanted to get it on the forum discuss it and then get it all put into an article. That way you can continue asking questions and I can try to add more to this topic and grow the article up more. 

 

There is a method to my madness...

[Doubletrouble]

[LorenS]

I bumped my Low Load threshold to the max of 40%. Since I have stock injectors I figure that's got to be about the same as a lower load on bigger injectors. My engine sounds better and the fuel economy seems to have improved a lot. Low load cruising boost has dropped. Flat ground driving for me is engine load near 30%!

[Mopar1973Man]

Stock injectors require long duration of being open to make the same amount of fuel. 

 

@LorenSYou might want to nudge the cruise timing up some more you notice the engine load may drop a bit more. If you notice the rattle is way more pronounced and then engine load seem to climb a bit your at your limits and need to back down again. Here is my latest Economy tune... Cruise timing at +6°...

 



 

I've ran the cruise timing at +4° for the last tank barely made 17 MPG. Now jumped up to +6° cruise timing and now the EGT's dropped really good and the engine oil temp rose about 5° roughly. So now I'm advanced about as far as I want to go. The rattle is more pronounced but EGT's are down, boost is down, and engine oil temp rose slightly. MPG appears to be better now and gaining above 19 MPG rough fuel gauge / odometer math.

 

Here is today's weather...

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[LorenS]

I haven't tapped the pump, but do generally run around in level 3. I haven't tried level 2 with these settings, will likely do so on my next highway long haul.

 

Do these numbers make sense for HY35 and stock reman injectors (50k miles)? As mentioned above, the truck is smoother, more responsive, boost at cruise has dropped from 5-7 down to 1-3 PSI! Haven't paid attention to IAT, but EGTs dropped some. I don't really see 2500 RPM very often, not sure I've seen 3k - certainly not unloaded.