Timing

[jag]

Is there any way of keeping the stock timing on the Quad? I am having trouble with timing settings & it pulling my engine down. I have tried quite a few different timing settings & I'm getting the same results. Not worried about fueling right now until I get this figured out. With the Quad on 0 trucking runs smooth & zippy. As soon as I go to 3, it pulls the truck down noticeably by listening to engine sound change. It sounds like it's being put under load. This does not happen at idle. It also makes the truck very sluggish. 

[Me78569]

 

read the section under "quadzilla secret"

 

 

[jag]

Thank you (ME)

Could someone give me an example of where the sliders might be set. MM mentions 5* max. So would this mean sliders start at zero also & go up from there to say maybe 5*.

This is very interesting. Information explained in a different way, but with the same end results.

[Nathan S]

What are the current settings for each slider in your tune? 
 

Im not sure if modifications to your truck, but mine starts out at 15.5* and steps up by 4* on each slider with the max timing being set at 26.5*. The truck seems pretty happy with these settings. 
 

There are more parameters that will effect how the trucks runs concerning timing that don’t involve the rpm max timing parameters. It’s been a couple months of reading, studying, and trying different things to see how the truck reacts. It does take time but it’s absolutely worth it in the end. I can’t believe how well mannered my truck is with a somewhat large turbo and pretty good sized injectors. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Nathan S
Added more information and clarification

[Mopar1973Man]

Like I start at 13 degrees and step up 5.5 degrees per band. Gives excellent launching power where 15 degrees is going to be doggy.

[Nathan S]

The first tune I built, I started at 14* and increased by 3* through the range. I had more issues with the truck being doggy and having a very prominent stumble as throttle position would change with rpm. I would see timing as low as 11 degrees as indicated by the quad. This was in 2nd and 3rd gear where load would be high, rpm low, and boost low. 
 

In trying to eliminate the stumble, I set the timing reduction scaling to 40%, and the low psi timing reduction to just .5*. Once the load would come down as I reached the shift point, there was an obvious audible difference in the engine tone. You have referred to the truck basically sounding as if it turns off when there isn’t enough timing. This is what my truck was doing. It would just fall on its face and buck. 
 

The current tune is the best I have had it yet. Timing reduct is set to 2.0* and the reduction scaling is at 100%, so at high load, low rpm and low boost situations the timing is reduced to near the 13* you are recommending. It’s much smoother without a trailer or load on the back, and lights the turbo quickly. In 4th gear, it will make 10 pounds of boost by 1600 rpm at only 50% throttle. 
 

By starting at 13* then increasing by 5.5* every step, the 3000 rpm and max timing sliders will just be maxed out, correct? 

[Me78569]

8 hours ago, jag said:

Thank you (ME)

Could someone give me an example of where the sliders might be set. MM mentions 5* max. So would this mean sliders start at zero also & go up from there to say maybe 5*.

This is very interesting. Information explained in a different way, but with the same end results.

set all timing values to 0 for stock.   If you want to add timing to the top of the stock value then you adjust your timing sliders by the * amount you want on top of stock.   The code limits that to 5* if I remember right.  

[Mopar1973Man]

2 hours ago, Nathan S said:

By starting at 13* then increasing by 5.5* every step, the 3000 rpm and max timing sliders will just be maxed out, correct? 

Remember MAX band is for controlling the cruise timing limit. You can set the max slider lower to cancel out the cruise timing to hold it to an absolute max.

 

Some of what the stock Quad tune is based on.

 

Here is step +4.0 starting at 13. You'll only gain 1 degree by 3k. No upper RPM advancement really 

 

Here is step +5.0 starting at 13. This is pretty good.

 

Here is step +5.5. Just no way to fit a +6.0 step. This was my last one I ran just as it popped the head gasket. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Mopar1973Man

[jag]

Thank you gentlemen.

Now I can safely try different options. The thing I am concerned is that the HR pump does some pretty funky stuff with the timing. I have heard rattling that would put a baby rattle to shame. Don't want to lift the head if all possible. I am running the 13-17-21-25-28 now, & it comes out of the hole very strong & spool is fast. I have been able to adjust my spring gate with a lot less tension to make this even spool faster. The other timing adjustment is set at 3-3-100-4-35. I am very happy with the fueling, it's just the timing that scares me.

I am going to go try some of the above settings & will report back later today.

Again Thank you

This is what I'm playing with.

62-68-12- top & 75-87-110 bottom, both billet. Stage 3 cam, 6x13 with .093 fuel tubes on a common rail head with Hamilton valve train upgrades. Pistons are coated with ceramic tops from a 2001 - 5 speed with the higher compression.  BD HR pump, 3 piece manifold & CC Tunnel Ram intake. Steady 20 lb. fuel psi. ARP throughout. High stall converter with built trans. Fluidamper.

Could it be a combination between the HR pump & higher compression that I'm getting timing rattle? Never thought of that.

[Nathan S]

I will build a new tune and start at 13* and move up in 5* increments, and compare to the current tune that starts at 15*. 
 

Am I correct in my understanding of what the low boost timing reduct and timing reduction scaling are doing? The low boost  reduct is the number of degrees of timing the quad will pull from the tune at high engine load and low boost pressure. The timing reduct scaling is the % value of the low boost reduction based on load, 50% of 2* at 50% would be 1*, right? The truck really felt as if it was pulling too much timing in the lower gears and then bringing it back all of a sudden when the engine load decreased. 
 

Do you think that the somewhat aggressive timing curve is what lead to the head gasket failure? I really don’t mean to hijack the thread, just want to make sure I’m understanding correctly so I don’t give bad advise. 

[jag]

Now that's just fun. I added 1* across the slider's. That's a noticeable difference. Tells me my settings were NFG. Left the fueling the same. EGT'S are a little warmer up top, but never seen 256* idling before. First time I have seen the fuel pressure warning light come on since owning the Quad also. I'll give it a couple of days to see if it's me or the timing.

MM, your charts make it very easy to see what's going on. 

[Me78569]

12 hours ago, Nathan S said:

I will build a new tune and start at 13* and move up in 5* increments, and compare to the current tune that starts at 15*. 
 

Am I correct in my understanding of what the low boost timing reduct and timing reduction scaling are doing? The low boost  reduct is the number of degrees of timing the quad will pull from the tune at high engine load and low boost pressure. The timing reduct scaling is the % value of the low boost reduction based on load, 50% of 2* at 50% would be 1*, right? The truck really felt as if it was pulling too much timing in the lower gears and then bringing it back all of a sudden when the engine load decreased. 
 

Do you think that the somewhat aggressive timing curve is what lead to the head gasket failure? I really don’t mean to hijack the thread, just want to make sure I’m understanding correctly so I don’t give bad advise. 

You are correct.

 

Low boost timing reduction pulls timing based on load and boost,  up to the amount you specify.   

Scaling makes the curve ram up faster while limiting the total amount.

 

Here is an example of 2.5* low boost at 100 scaling vs 5* at %50 scaling.  They both reach a max of 2.5*, but the 5* at %50 pulls the max timing 2 times faster compared to TPS input.

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly it woudl be hard to blow a head with timing alone.    IF you had some 7 x .010's stomped on it at 1 rpm and a load  then jacked timing to 20*+ at sub 1500 rpm I could see that being an issue.    

Edited April 20, 2021 by Me78569

[Dieselfuture]

@Mopar1973Man I can't remember have you done your re torque on ARP studs. My original head gasket blew in the exact same spot, it was pushing oil right out of the nut on top of the stud. I ended up taking that nut off and put a bunch of rtv in the gap then torque the stud back down, drove like that for about 6-7 years, then finally I was playing with racing tune and when I got home I seen oil coming out from the head gasket on the same stud. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Hey @Dieselfuture I'll give that a shot and see what happens.

 

What did you use for thread lube?

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Hey @Dieselfuture I'll give that a shot and see what happens.

 

What did you use for thread lube?

I had some arp lube laying around. 

Before I filled the gap between the stud and the head when I took the stud off I sprayed some good carb cleaner and blew it out with air.