Low Boost After Boost Elbow Install

[Andyba20]

I’m tempted to send it off for a rebuild. I watched the one dudes video, then apparently a short time later his rebuild failed. Sounds like Moparman is on his 2nd rebuild kit. So maybe the rebuild kits aren’t that good? I’m just not a talented mechanic and there’s nobody around here that knows anything anymore. 
 

I did start cleaning up around the wastegate port and man that stuff is like iron. I’m slowly chiseling it all out with a small screwdriver. 
 

 

[Andyba20]

20 hours ago, wil440 said:

I'm a bit late to these pictures but the first picture is your problem as has been said and he's how it happened

 

Your wastegate has had carbon build up over time but still sealing in a fashion, wastegate probably not opening very often, and your 18 to 20 psi not very often

You then fit a boost elbow, your OVER 22psi event dislodged some of the carbon on the WG seat, now it won't seat at all.

I have a boost valve and it pops on a hard throttle shutoff and there is some CFM of exhaust gasses passing through that certainly enough to trash a carbon seat

 

No harm done, clean it up with a scraper and then a wire wheel in a drill, I'd use a brass wire wheel just because I have them, nice and steady and clean with brake cleaner

On your second picture, I'd be removing the stud (hopefully that's the only one that didn't come out) and using a fine toothed flat file dead flat on the flange to face it a bit, same with the turbo face but make sure no filings end up in the turbo, I pack the port with rag (not fluffy rag) do the facing then use a magnet  to pull most filings before removing the rag then a good blow out with air or brake cleaner

 

On your third picture I see a shiny ring right about half way down the vanes on the housing intake side, check that this is not the vanes contacting the housing, if it is you will see a corresponding mark on the vane edges, my guess is it's right on a slight ridge where the housing changes angle, the airflow over this will keep it clean just the same as the front edges of the vanes are always cleaner than the sides, check for shaft play, there should be some, the specs will be in the FSM, I never check specs as I've seen that many a quick wobble is enough just pay attention to how close to the housing the vanes can actually get as it's always better to change a turbo before the vanes eat the housing, if you think it's close check the specs

The shaft should turn freely BUT some removed units do have a bit of a resistance to start to spin by hand but it is only a bit, a little oil down the oil feed usually makes a difference

Also the vane at around 10 to 11 o'clock what is the mark/line check it is just carbon, check the others too because of this one

 

I see nothing on your 4th picture other than a face that needs facing and there are no marks on the housing so the ring on the intake side is probably an air polished ring and not vane contact 

 

Thanks for looking  so closely at all of this. I’ve been checking into your observations. I’m gonna try to post some more pics tomorrow. Been doing some research and it doesn’t seem too many people are having luck rebuilding these things themselves with the kits. I’m gonna make some calls tomorrow. But before I go the new turbo route I’m going to clean up the wastegate port and flapper as suggested by you and @IBMobile and, @Tractorman,reinstall, and then drive it. If that doesn’t work I’ll start trying to find someone to rebuild it, or just buy another turbo I guess. It was a lot easier to stay on top of things with this truck when there were smart and honest people around here that wanted to give good service. It’s maddening right now. 

[wil440]

2 hours ago, Andyba20 said:

Thanks for looking  so closely at all of this. I’ve been checking into your observations. I’m gonna try to post some more pics tomorrow. Been doing some research and it doesn’t seem too many people are having luck rebuilding these things themselves with the kits. I’m gonna make some calls tomorrow. But before I go the new turbo route I’m going to clean up the wastegate port and flapper as suggested by you and @IBMobile and, @Tractorman,reinstall, and then drive it. If that doesn’t work I’ll start trying to find someone to rebuild it, or just buy another turbo I guess. It was a lot easier to stay on top of things with this truck when there were smart and honest people around here that wanted to give good service. It’s maddening right now. 

That's exactly what I would do, inspect it, make sure the bearings are ok to run and the vanes aren't touching the housings and sort the wastegate faces out, right now I wouldn't worry about oil residue as unless the shaft wasn't turning the small amount of residue isn't going to cause your boost problems, I have seen many turbo's seized but mostly the result is a lot worse than low boost.

By cleaning and facing the wastegate area and refitting you test YOUR parts to find the cause of your fault without spending any money, I would even reuse the steel shim gaskets right now and just use some high temp sealant or copperslip just to test, don't forget you have already done the hard work removing it, it will jump off if you remove it again to either replace or fit new gaskets especially if you copperslip  mounting nuts/studs.

Get it bolted on fit the oil drain but leave off the intake tube and just before you are ready to start pour a little engine oil down the oil supply on the turbo then fit the line, turn the shaft with fingers then start it, I would leave the intake off just make sure NOTHING can get airborne move everything, all tools, rags etc away and while idling just inspect the intake.

Once happy refit intake tube and test properly, depending on how well you clean the wastegate you may still see reduced boost but higher than now or back to all ok.

 

As for rebuilding turbo's in my job here in the UK it just isn't done, take a Cat 777 engine, twin turbo and like dinner plates, replacement engine £50k or more, yes they are service ex but whoever rebuilds is insured to the hilt and my guess is it's only the housings that are reused, it only needs a vane to crack and they do, I've worked on Cat 775 dumptrucks for over 30 years on and off and if R and M is done correctly turbos, water pumps, fan drives are replaced at around 12k hrs

I'm not saying I wouldn't rebuild my truck's turbo I'm saying I have never rebuilt a turbo, I can see if someone has an aftermarket bigger better turbo yes you would rebuild

 

[Andyba20]

Is porting the wastegate to 15/16” worth the effort? Figured I’d explore that option before I put the turbo back on. Is it mainly a performance mod or is there a reliability/longevity factor to it? Would there be a noticeable effect on drive pressure?

Edited February 4, 2022 by Andyba20

[wil440]

53 minutes ago, Andyba20 said:

Is porting the wastegate to 15/16” worth the effort? Figured I’d explore that option before I put the turbo back on. Is it mainly a performance mod or is there a reliability/longevity factor to it? Would there be a noticeable effect on drive pressure?

Sorry I have no idea as my turbo is stock, I don't have egt problems and I don't need more power so unless it dies it's staying just as it is

 

Right now if I was trying to diagnose your problem I would refit the turbo as is just with the wastegate face cleaned nice this will test if the WG was the problem and once you have found the problem you can then decide on mods, also if you are reusing gaskets it's really should come off again to fit new and if you expect them to leak and they don't win win 

[Andyba20]

Went to reinstall the turbo today and noticed the gasket on the oil drain tube was degrading. Ran all over town looking for one. Got wrong parts at 2 places that I called before I even went. Here’s my question. Most all the big diesel vendors list 5264569 as the part # for 89-02, but the center on that gasket is rectangle, mine’s circular. Was the oil drain outlet a different shape for the HX vs HY? I have some tan 1/32” Fel-Pro gasket sheets (Karropak), is that safe to use here? I’d prefer to find something locally or make something since shipping is taking forever and the truck is sitting in the driveway. 

 

https://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/5264569/

 

 

[Tractorman]

I think I would just make my own gasket and form it in the shape of the hole that it surrounds.

 

- John

[Mopar1973Man]

You don't want to see the gasket I made out of Napa cardboard label. Made in roughly 10 minutes and cost nothing. No sealant used. No leaks.

[Andyba20]

So no issue with heat there? 

[Mopar1973Man]

34 minutes ago, Andyba20 said:

So no issue with heat there? 

Nope. Done this quite a few times.

[IBMobile]

47 minutes ago, Andyba20 said:

the center on that gasket is rectangle, mine’s circular.

Had the same thing happen to me when replacing Turbos on Volvos.  Sometimes the hole would be round and other times rectangle.  

So long as the bolt holes line up, and the center hole is large enough for good oil flow use what you bought.

[Andyba20]

What would happen if a chunk degraded again over time and went down the oil tube? Could it take anything out?

[IBMobile]

It would go down into the oil pan.  It might get sucked up to the oil screen on the oil pump pickup.

[Max Tune]

Trim it with exacto knife to fit hole.

[Mopar1973Man]

10 hours ago, Andyba20 said:

What would happen if a chunk degraded again over time and went down the oil tube? Could it take anything out?

 

10 hours ago, IBMobile said:

It would go down into the oil pan.  It might get sucked up to the oil screen on the oil pump pickup.

This is why I do not suggest any sealants like silicone because most people don't know how to use it properly. When it over applied then it breaks off and ends up in the oil pickup screen yes I've seen a few plugged with silicone trash. 99% of our engine was put together with sealants. The only place is the gear case that is silicone. Even that is grey RTV.

[Andyba20]

Got the turbo back on today. Between having to make a gasket for the oil drain tube and then stripping the threads out of one of the holes on the turbo exhaust housing, it was a sitcom. Took it for a spin, same low boost. Went home and started trying things. Put the Smarty back to stock, went out and got back to 18-20 psi. Hmm. Ok. Loaded a Smarty tune, went for a drive and still got 18-20. Back to normal, but still not where it should be with the new boost elbow (adjustment screw all the way in). It’s like the Smarty boost fooling isn’t working. I’m planning to move to the Adrenaline anyway, but I’d kinda like to figure this out before I start making big changes. I’d feel better knowing what the actual issue is. No codes still. 

[Silverwolf2691]

I have no experience with a smarty besides what I've read, but does smarty do any boost fooling? It kinda sounds like factory defuel..

 

part of me wants to say clamp the wastegate hose.. and force the wastegate to stay shut. Weak wastegate spring is coming to mind, as well as a poor sealing boost elbow..

[wil440]

5 hours ago, Andyba20 said:

Got the turbo back on today. Between having to make a gasket for the oil drain tube and then stripping the threads out of one of the holes on the turbo exhaust housing, it was a sitcom. Took it for a spin, same low boost. Went home and started trying things. Put the Smarty back to stock, went out and got back to 18-20 psi. Hmm. Ok. Loaded a Smarty tune, went for a drive and still got 18-20. Back to normal, but still not where it should be with the new boost elbow (adjustment screw all the way in). It’s like the Smarty boost fooling isn’t working. I’m planning to move to the Adrenaline anyway, but I’d kinda like to figure this out before I start making big changes. I’d feel better knowing what the actual issue is. No codes still. 

 

Sorry the wastegate cleaning didn't totally sort out your problem but that WG was leaking and did need fixing, this is how diagnosis should be done.. see what you see, fix it, test 

 

It does now sound like the truck is defuelling   what boost was you seeing before this ??

 

I would  remove the boost elbow and test it as it was, boost elbow all the way in might be too much ?? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the BE just test as was, then wire the waste gate actuator shut so it cannot open and test again, this tests the actuator

[Andyba20]

11 hours ago, Silverwolf2691 said:

I have no experience with a smarty besides what I've read, but does smarty do any boost fooling? It kinda sounds like factory defuel..

 

part of me wants to say clamp the wastegate hose.. and force the wastegate to stay shut. Weak wastegate spring is coming to mind, as well as a poor sealing boost elbow..

It does boost fooling, and I’ve got the adjuster screw on the elbow turned all the way in, so the wastegate isn’t opening at all (plus I tested the actuator while the turbo was removed and it snaps shut like a bear trap. I tested for leaks again at 30psi and there are none. Specifically tested around the boost elbow too. 

6 hours ago, wil440 said:

 

Sorry the wastegate cleaning didn't totally sort out your problem but that WG was leaking and did need fixing, this is how diagnosis should be done.. see what you see, fix it, test 

 

It does now sound like the truck is defuelling   what boost was you seeing before this ??

 

I would  remove the boost elbow and test it as it was, boost elbow all the way in might be too much ?? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the BE just test as was, then wire the waste gate actuator shut so it cannot open and test again, this tests the actuator

In my mind, deductive reasoning suggests a computer issue and not mechanical. Just resetting to stock got me from 12psi back to 18-20, then reapplied the smarty tune and stayed at 18-20. I’m not sure if the Smarty communicates with the MAP sensor at all, but could a faulty map sensor cause these kind of symptoms? 

[Mopar1973Man]

Difference...

 

Smarty just take the stock ECM data and backs it all up to the Smarty Module for return to stock. All the factory limits still exist so the fuel table only goes to about 22 to 25 PSI. All your doing with a smarty making the throttle a light switch it will be 100% CANBus fuel by 30% APPS signal. More or less follows the stock tune fuel ramp just more fuel quicker. Timing follows the stock layout of the most part just adding timing on top.

 

Kind of why I dropped the Edge Comp after going to +75 HP injectors because the timing was way off and created a smokey tune that was super hard to clean up. Not to mention no longer efficient tune for such injectors being the timing is way off and the fuel map is too heavy down low to give that torque response everyone loves. It the same note also brought down the EPA on us all. Now Quadzilla set up right doesn't pollute much at all and like I've bested my own highmark of 27.2 MPG (Edge Comp with +50 Injectors) to 28.04 MPG (Quadzilla +150 HP injectors) I'm living proof that you can have your cake and eat it too. 

 

Quadzilla you now injecting full fuel maps and timing maps and not using any stock information unless below 1,200 RPM then the ECM now takes back over and Quadzilla only monitors engine data. If you want to do timing like a Smarty just set all the TIMING PARAMETERS to 0 then go to MAX TIMING and set the amount of PLUS DEGREES you want on top of stock timing map. Stock map is OK to use with stock or RV275 Injectors after that you should seriously consider custom timing. As for the fuel map you taking the stock fuel number and adding a percentage to the fuel number. Example engine load is 25% and the boost is 2 PSI for my so my programmed fuel for 2 PSI is 88% so the math looks like...

 

Showing de-fueling

25% fuel desired x 88% fuel map at 2 PSI = Actual fuel commanded is 22%

 

Showing increased fueling

75% fuel desired x 120% fuel map at 20 PSI = Actual fuel commanded is 84%

 

Just to show WOT at 100% tuned...

100% WOT x 100% fuel map at 30 PSI 100% fuel map = Actual fuel commanded is 100%

 

This is also why I'm one of the few that creates a stock fuel range in the middle of the map so you can have a more or less a streetable daily driver with little smoke and never cruising in a 101% or greater fuel map (Not Good). Then gang the wire tap and the CANBus fueling together at the same point. Right at the end of the 100% stock what ever PSI it start to rise that is the PSI you set to start the wire tap. Be sure ot set the max PSI for the wire tap in a reach able PSI so you don't short change the tune. More or less when I stand on it both the CANBus and Wire Tap hit together and the power is much more pulling you back in the seat in my case more times out of ten the tires break free and the blue smoke starts. 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Mopar1973Man