No cold start problem.....help

[Doubletrouble]

 So, weather sucks. It's like 4°F here with wind chills of -25. Truck won't start. I though it was gelled up. Poured power service in the tank, went to pour some in the filter housing and the fuel in there is fine. I reinstalled the filter top. Still no start.

 Put a fuel pressure test gauge on it and no fuel pressure.  truck was plugged in, ran fine before thos cold weather, plenty of fuel pressure before also. 

 Is it possible the lift pump froze? 

[Andyba20]

Where’s the filter housing? Where’s the pump? If your filter housing is in stock location maybe there was enough heat from the block to keep it from gelling, and the fuel lines to the tank are gelled? Could you have gotten air in the line when you were checking the filter? Just theories. 

[Doubletrouble]

The filter housing and LP are in the stock locations. I belive the small factory line from the tank to the LP could be the issue.

 I may have gotten a little air in the filter housing when I removed the top but minimal. 

 I'm gonna go back out and try to get some heat under the truck with a salamander heater to warm the lines. It still windy so I don't know how that'll work.

[JAG1]

I don't think he got air in there unless the fuel somehow drained back to the tank when taking off the cap. I think running a heat gun to all fuel lines, lift pump etc. will do the trick. It should work if you warm up everything further away from the warmed engine. You could use a temperature laser gun to see who is the coldest under there.

 

Where's Mike Nelson BTW, he headed out for Seattle didn't he? has anyone heard from him?

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Doubletrouble said:

The filter housing and LP are in the stock locations. I belive the small factory line from the tank to the LP could be the issue.

 I may have gotten a little air in the filter housing when I removed the top but minimal. 

 I'm gonna go back out and try to get some heat under the truck with a salamander heater to warm the lines. It still windy so I don't know how that'll work.

Don't cook anything under there Boss!

Edited December 24, 2022 by JAG1

[Doubletrouble]

 I haven't heard from Mike.

 A heat gun might be a better option. Be easier to control where the heat goes that way. If I can get her fired up and stay running to warm everything I have some fuel treatment to prevent it from happening again.

[IBMobile]

56 minutes ago, Doubletrouble said:

It still windy so I don't know how that'll work.

Make a wind block out of cardboard, plywood, table turned on its side, and a tarp. 

[JAG1]

6 hours ago, IBMobile said:

Make a wind block out of cardboard, plywood, table turned on its side, and a tarp. 

He's gotten real good at makin' those with me around camp.

 

Michael Nelson made it home just fine, is in good shape... I talked with him on the phone since I was concerned.

[wil440]

I think here in the UK the winter of 87 was a really cold one for the UK with lots of snow, I was working at the granite quarry in the little village where I live IIRC it was around -15c to -20c

 

We had 2 Ford D series ex fire trucks, crewcabs with Perkins V8 diesels which were used as maintenance trucks around the quarry, both froze in the middle of the yard, diesel lines and air brake lines all froze, they both had oxy/acetyline cutting gear on board it took 2 of us over 2 weeks to get those trucks moving again, the diesel lines weren't too bad and every morning after starting everything else it didn't take long to get the diesel liquid again and engines running, the brake lines were the big problem we'd get thawing then it's the afternoon and getting darker then the cold just refroze everything again so next day back to square one.

I'd be getting something in the tank to lower the gell point (guess you guys have that all the time) then suck it or blow it through the lines to the LP and filter and then see if the VP will bleed 

I take it the grids are working ok ?

[Doubletrouble]

@wil440, yes the grids are working fine. I was messing with it yesterday and got it to shiw fuel pressure so I would bump the starter and just let the pump run for 20 seconds to try and bleed it through hoping to pull the now treated fuel through the lift pump. It was showing pressure at the test port on the vp44. Then I tried to start it. She fired and ran for about 30 seconds and died again, list fuel pressure.

 I'm hoping this didnt simehow take out the lift pump. Its a raptor 150 and has less than 10k miles on it.

I'll mess with it more today, the outside temp is a bit better. It's 12°F now. Yesterday it was still in the low single digits.

 Also had the battery charger on it all night at 6amps, maybe that'll help. I don't know. In all my years of truck driving this is the first time I've had anything freeze up in the fuel line like this. 

[JAG1]

I am hoping warmer temps are heading your way since we went from 22* to 45* in 24 hrs. Also seeing weather coming from the south eastern Pacific which is always a warm temperate pattern. I have in the past used a shop vac with the hose placed into the outlet blowing side of the vac with a rag blowing into the fill neck to prime a couple times but you have to have a portion of the fuel line open to see when fuel starts flowing. A problem with that is your expanding the fuel tank at the same time so I always did short blasts of air so I didn't damage anything. I would open the line to the VP and have someone watch for flow and tighten it yourself because those threads are aluminum and you do not want to wrench them and strip them light snug is good and if it weeps then a bit more till it stops. You might get it this way anyhow. Sometimes I think its good to just let quite a bit of fuel thru and guarantee there's nor air but, it makes a mess sometimes.

 

We need her running so you can go camping with us LOL!

Edited December 25, 2022 by JAG1

[Doubletrouble]

15 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

We need her running so you can go camping with us LOL

 I would love to! Wish ya'll weren't so far away, it would be a great time I think.

 Today I'm going to open a fuel line in a spot or two to see if I have flow. What concerns me is I'm not showing any fuel pressure at the test port on the vp.

 Also going to check for power to the pump to be sure she's getting juice.

 May have to line up a couple tables for a wind break and ppint the salamander under there also. 

 We have family coming over today so my truck time will be limited.

 Just drives me crazy knowing she's out there but won't start. Don't know why but it irritates my soil. Lol

[Tractorman]

@Doubletrouble, in the early stages of diesel fuel gelling, wax crystals form.  The wax crystals typically collect and block a filter or a suction screen.  The rest of the fuel in lines and the fuel in the tank are usually okay.  The fuel in your fuel filter may look good, but the wax crystals may have formed which will make it difficult for fuel to passed through the filter.

 

If you have a stock fuel basket in the tank, then the fuel inlet screen is likely to be restricted in the same manner.  Not much you can do about that one, except maybe build a protected area under the fuel tank and apply heat with an electric space heater - carefully!

 

You could put a drop light with an incandescent bulb under fuel filter housing in the engine bay and block the air flow around the filter housing.  I would not crack any fuel lines open anymore, as there is no benefit and you do risk introducing air each time. 

 

4 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

She fired and ran for about 30 seconds and died again,

 

The likely reason the engine lost fuel pressure and died is because the VP44 internal vane pump (you know, the one nobody talks about) is pumping fine and was trying to draw fuel in faster than the lift pump and related components could provide.

 

I don't think your lift pump is damaged. 

 

Be patient - think it through..., enjoy your Christmas Day!

 

- John

[W-T]

20 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

The filter housing and LP are in the stock locations.

Sorry for your troubles. If the LP is in the stock location, I would hope you are providing the DC through an isolation relay?

The original 12 volt trigger line that powered the OE LP is the line you use to trigger the isolation relay. The isolation relay only sinks about 20 or 30 milliamps directly from the MOSFET driver in the ECU.

The original LP would sink about 5 amps off this circuit because the little Carter LP is a peanut whistle pump.

The AirDog Raptor most likely sinks about 7 to perhaps 8 Amps....the isolation Relay eliminates the current demand from the MOSFET driver within the ECU because it is no longer powering the OE LP...this is a good thing.

 

20 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

 

 I may have gotten a little air in the filter housing when I removed the top but minima

Not an issue, your Raptor has the ability to purge the filter canister and out-flow the residual air through the over-flow valve at the rear of the cylinder head when the CTD is NOT running.

 

3 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

I was messing with it yesterday and got it to show fuel pressure so I would bump the starter and just let the pump run for 20 seconds to try and bleed it through hoping to pull the now treated fuel through the lift pump. It was showing pressure at the test port on the vp44. Then I tried to start it. She fired and ran for about 30 seconds and died again, lost fuel pressure.

Good, you got it to "show fuel pressure" NOW stop this "twenty second" run stuff right NOW!

Get yourself a couple of test leads with little alligator clips about 12 inches long or perhaps longer (no worries)

Un-plug the trigger line from the ECU that "is supposed to be" triggering the isolation relay.

Take your test leads and connect them to the relay coil pigtail that was previously connected to the ECU trigger line.

Now, take your test leads and source 12 volts directly to activate the isolation relay.

 

This will force your Raptor into "a continuous run" condition, because you have manually provided 12 volts to trigger the relay.

 

You should hear the Raptor run immediately when you trigger the isolation relay. LET IT RUN !

 

NOW, go open your fuel filler door, remove the fuel cap and put your ear to the hole at the filler-neck and listen. Once you hear fuel being returned to the tank you should see fuel pressure. If NOT, your "peanut-whistle" feed-line has a frozen booger clogging the pathway.

 

4 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

 Also had the battery charger on it all night at 6amps, maybe that'll help. I don't know. In all my years of truck driving this is the first time I've had anything freeze up in the fuel line like this. 

Good, leave the 6 Amp charger hooked up while you do this and let the Raptor RUN !

NOTE: quiet conditions are required when you are trying to hear liquid flow being returned to the tank.

 

I know it's cold and miserable at your location...stay with me...

 

In this "force run condition" this effort may require getting under the vehicle with an industrial heat gun and began "heat tracing" your peanut-whistle fuel lines.

BOTH feed and return must be HEATED to restore the full circulatory aspect of your system.

 

It will cause NO harm to continuously force run your Raptor in this TEST scenario and the battery charger will prevent pulling the head-charge off your storage cells.

The force run condition without the CTD rumbling in your ears should allow you to "listen" for success once the system is fully purged and free-flowing.

 

Most likely, you'll see a fuel pressure indication once flow is achieved.

 

I strongly believe following these suggestions carefully and remaining focused on the details will yield successful results.

 

Removing your temporary test leads and restoring your ECU trigger line to the isolation relay, returns your system to standard operational condition.

 

Please, do NOT "test lead" 12 volts into the ECU trigger line...that, is a direct act of buffoonery!  

 

Merry Christmas

W-T

 

 

 

 

 

[Doubletrouble]

 Thanks to all that have helped! I finally got her fired up and running. 

 W-T, that was a great testing scenario! Unfortunately I did not read this until after I was finished. BTW- I do have the lift pump on a relay to avoid pulling the amps required through the ecm.

 To sum it up,  I got her to build pressure so fired her up. The fuel pressure would slowly tapped off to near 0, I shut it down. Reprimed with a key cycle and restarted. Did this about 4 times and she started holding enough pressure to safely idle, around 10psi.

 As it idled things began to warm up and the fuel pressure was rising as well. Once fully warmed the fuel pressure was back to 18psi at idle. If I would rap on it she did not drop below 15psi. I let her idle in the driveway for a good 45 minutes to an hour before a test drive around the block (about 4 miles) then let her idle some more while putting tools away.

 I believe there may have been some gel or icing somewhere in the lines or pump. 

 At this point there should be plenty of treatment in the tank to avoid a repeat. I poured 64 Oz. Of power service 911 red bottle in there to begin the thawing process. Then 32oz of the white bottle power service to prevent gelling.

 Should be plenty! 

 So this is my Christmas miracle I suppose. Thank you all again for your ideas and advise. I greatly appreciate it!

[Tractorman]

@W-T, would it be okay to send you a private message?

 

- John

[W-T]

John, of course...I'm just doodling in the office. It's early Christmas morning and still sober...not for long  

[Doubletrouble]

Awww @Tractorman and @W-T have secrets! 

[JAG1]

Both these members have good intentions so let them be as covert as they like . W-T has good camouflage for his truck.... I can barely make out what it looks like with his Girlfriend standing in the front.

[Doubletrouble]

 Just pickin @JAG1.  Glad to see W-T still pops in from time to time and insightful as always.

[JAG1]

7 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

 Just pickin @JAG1.  Glad to see W-T still pops in from time to time and insightful as always.

I know you where and its cool.

Edited December 26, 2022 by JAG1