MPG fooler - Design phase

[ISX]

ADDON INFO: Doing a little math for the to test runs... (2 miles out 2 miles back) 55 MPH / 14.7 MPG = 3.74 GPH 55 MPH / 15.5 MPG = 3.54 GPH So this goes to prove so far that cold air intake and such don't do anything for MPG number they will do something for HP/TQ numbers. Another tidbit that I found interesting while playing around was the truck was capable of building a full head of boost at 35 PSI with the 132*F IAT than with the 13*F IAT it only pulled 31 barely 32 PSI...

Well some basic testing done... Now as for the grid heater its based on both the ECT and IAT temps for a trigger so if I use my ECT fooler from the high idle and the 2.7K ohm resistor in the IAT sensor fooling to 132*F the grid heater are not present at all... As such the truck starts and run similar to a 12V the idle is a bit low and rough for a second or two. Then it will idle normally... (Interresting! )

I find that part interesting and makes me think some more.. If yours run off of ECT and IAT for the grids, I am wondering if the ECT also ties into the mix with the timing. It would only matter during warm up and you would have to just instantly fool it into thinking it was 195F and see if the warm up mpg's went up even more. But I think this is kinda a waste of time to try and go that far just for warmup so I wouldn't bother, but I am betting it ties into it a little. If you are getting in it and going so the engine is 30F also, you could flip that 123F switch for a while and see if it does anything Now the boost thing is something else that is incredibly interesting and gives more clues. I gotta do some more searching and reading and figure out exactly what that pump does with timing if it is cold/hot IAT's. I *think* whatever it does with high IAT's is not supposed to raise boost like that, but because you fooled it, the ACTUAL cold intake air has the effect of producing more boost.

[Mopar1973Man]

I find that part interesting and makes me think some more.. If yours run off of ECT and IAT for the grids, I am wondering if the ECT also ties into the mix with the timing. It would only matter during warm up and you would have to just instantly fool it into thinking it was 195F and see if the warm up mpg's went up even more. But I think this is kinda a waste of time to try and go that far just for warmup so I wouldn't bother, but I am betting it ties into it a little. If you are getting in it and going so the engine is 30F also, you could flip that 123F switch for a while and see if it does anything Now the boost thing is something else that is incredibly interesting and gives more clues. I gotta do some more searching and reading and figure out exactly what that pump does with timing if it is cold/hot IAT's. I *think* whatever it does with high IAT's is not supposed to raise boost like that, but because you fooled it, the ACTUAL cold intake air has the effect of producing more boost.

Becareful the FOOLED 132*F is what produced the high boost numbers over the FOOLED 13*F...

[ISX]

Becareful the FOOLED 132*F is what produced the high boost numbers over the FOOLED 13*F...

Yes I realize that. But it was not truly 132F.. So I am thinking the engine does something in the summer that doesnt necessarily make more boost, but since the air was actually cold, it ended up building more boost. What it actually did though, I am searching for What was the actual temp anyways? You say fooled 13F. Was it 30F out?

[bronzebeard9]

this is awesome guys!! great work. thats what has me hooked on this site, everyone thinks outside

the box and tries new ideas, most of which may seem very unconventional but once you do a little reading, the amount of research and the knowledge of these trucks you all posses shines through. again, great work guys and keep it up!!

[Mopar1973Man]

Yes I realize that. But it was not truly 132F.. So I am thinking the engine does something in the summer that doesnt necessarily make more boost, but since the air was actually cold, it ended up building more boost.

What it actually did though, I am searching for

What was the actual temp anyways? You say fooled 13F. Was it 30F out?

Actual Outside Temp = 32*F

Fooled IAT 13*F = 31-32 PSI Boost

Fooled IAT 132*F = 35 PSI Boost

IAT Sensor (81*F) = 33 PSI Boost

(Note: Winter front is present)

this is awesome guys!! great work. thats what has me hooked on this site, everyone thinks outside

the box and tries new ideas, most of which may seem very unconventional but once you do a little reading, the amount of research and the knowledge of these trucks you all posses shines through. again, great work guys and keep it up!!

Just got to keep pushing the envelope...

[flagmanruss]

Is there a down side? Once warmed up, does the IAT fooler do anything nasty of the high end?

[Mopar1973Man]

Is there a down side? Once warmed up, does the IAT fooler do anything nasty of the high end?

The only down side I seen was start up it acted like a old 12V engine... As for completely warmed engine it actually performed quite well. I'm going for loner term testing now... I got plans to head to McCall, ID to go shopping and take care of a few other things so I'll put the resistor back in and do some more long term testing...

[ISX]

Is there a down side? Once warmed up, does the IAT fooler do anything nasty of the high end?

Building that much boost it should be at the same hot temp on the top end as we are fooling it to. You could turn the fooler off and it would probably be the same temp, creating boost creates heat..

I am still thinking of other things that are degrading you guys. I think Mike actually was running his bigger tires which is why his mileage start point was only 13mpg. So if he had his small tires he would have started at 18 I am guessing.

--- Update to the previous post...

The only down side I seen was start up it acted like a old 12V engine...

As for completely warmed engine it actually performed quite well. I'm going for loner term testing now... I got plans to head to McCall, ID to go shopping and take care of a few other things so I'll put the resistor back in and do some more long term testing...

You spent a week putting that together I thought you had a whole switch contraption made for it! Now I am disappointed in you I figured you would turn the switch off for normal IAT then once it was started and run for a min, flip it.

[SASQCH]

ADDON INFO: Doing a little math for the to test runs... (2 miles out 2 miles back) 55 MPH / 14.7 MPG = 3.74 GPH 55 MPH / 15.5 MPG = 3.54 GPH So this goes to prove so far that cold air intake and such don't do anything for MPG number they will do something for HP/TQ numbers. Another tidbit that I found interesting while playing around was the truck was capable of building a full head of boost at 35 PSI with the 132*F IAT than with the 13*F IAT it only pulled 31 barely 32 PSI...

Mike, are you replacing the IAT connection with the resistor and just using the IAT to plug the hole in the manifold? How have you hooked it up? Did you put together a special connector for teh IAT wires? I would really like to try this on my truck and see how it behaves in the cold and what kind of mileage I would get. Also whether it affects the stalling when put put in drive it is cold. Jim

[Mopar1973Man]

Mike, are you replacing the IAT connection with the resistor and just using the IAT to plug the hole in the manifold? How have you hooked it up? Did you put together a special connector for teh IAT wires? I would really like to try this on my truck and see how it behaves in the cold and what kind of mileage I would get. Also whether it affects the stalling when put put in drive it is cold. Jim

As for hook up I'm just unhooking the IAT wire and plugging in a 2.7K ohm resistor in the plug. I'm going to pick up another DPDT toggle switch and hook up the resistor on a toggle off my high idle fooler so can command the fooler for the testing phase... As for cold start you it will most likely die on it face with your automatic trans being as tight as it is... When I had the resistor in for my cold start up it just like ISX it stumbles a few revs and then with slight pressure on the throttle for a second or so it will hold up after it gets a few secs of heat built.

[Heavyd1980]

Man Mopar you are one smart cat. you must have a whole lot of time to devote to all these wonderful findings and boy im glad you do!!!! keep up the good work and thank you.

[ISX]

I got several things to talk about now :hyper:First off, I did some research and found the VP44 advances a LOT for starting in the cold and retards as the engine warms up in order to meet NOX standards. Fuel temperature also contributes to what the timing is. All of this just reinforces what Mike has told me so at least I am getting the same story everywhere. Fuel temp is cold in winter too so I wonder how much of a difference that makes. I don't know how cold the fuel runs in relation to ambient when it is below freezing out. John had a fuel temp sensor on that edge juice and I think I was seeing 20-30F over ambient just driving around, but that was at 70F, I want to know how warm it gets in the freezing temps. Secondly, I had to go to Jeff City to get myself xmas presents and I was already topped off so I decided to see if I could match the 27mpg I got at 90F in the summer at 55mph. So off I went, 55mph the entire way. My cruise control is really screwy lately so this time I used my foot, last time was with the cruise. Here is what I got, I was sitting at the pump when I made it:

That's actually the same thing I got in the summer.. +- 0.1mpg. Can't remember the exact number last time, think it was 0.1mpg less than this time. It was 25F, NO winter front. Now if the BTU is truly less in the winter, that proves that the engine is more efficient with the colder air going into it, to the point that it makes up for the loss in MPG that you would normally see from the BTU loss. I have proved this twice now (nebraska run also). It was 25F with no winter front that time as well, interestingly enough. Mike has yet to give me answer to whether he is running his bigger tires or not but even so, that is a HUGE mpg difference from what he is getting at the same speed (55). Makes me think there is a lot more to the picture than just the IAT. I am going to keep thinking about this, there just has to be more to it, just HAS to be

[Rogan]

I'd pass a stone the size of Kansas, if my 24v would break >19mpg on the highway.. Hell, I'd like to see > 14 in town.My 12V with #10 and 38psi boost got 17-18 in town, and 26 on the highway at 68mph (CC) from VA to NY.I've used 3/8 tank on this last fuel up, and I've barely reached 120mi.

[ISX]

I'd pass a stone the size of Kansas, if my 24v would break >19mpg on the highway.. Hell, I'd like to see > 14 in town. My 12V with #10 and 38psi boost got 17-18 in town, and 26 on the highway at 68mph (CC) from VA to NY. I've used 3/8 tank on this last fuel up, and I've barely reached 120mi.

[SASQCH]

First off, I did some research and found the VP44 advances a LOT for starting in the cold and retards as the engine warms up in order to meet NOX standards. Fuel temperature also contributes to what the timing is. All of this just reinforces what Mike has told me so at least I am getting the same story everywhere. Fuel temp is cold in winter too so I wonder how much of a difference that makes. I don't know how cold the fuel runs in relation to ambient when it is below freezing out. John had a fuel temp sensor on that edge juice and I think I was seeing 20-30F over ambient just driving around, but that was at 70F, I want to know how warm it gets in the freezing temps.

[ISX]

Is there a temp sensor for the fuel? If so where is it and how does it come into play? I know that warm fuel ignites much easier than cold fuel. Is the ECM using the coolant temp as a parameter in retarding the timing? If so what would happen if the coolant signal to the ECM was fooled like Mike is fooling the IAT signal, would the timing stay more advanced providing better MPGs?

[Mopar1973Man]

Ok here is todays trip... @ISX yes I've got my heavy Cooper STT's 265/75 R16 on... With the 2.7K ohm resistor for the trip to McCall ID for shopping... Not bad... I was hoping to smack 20 MPG... Low record for the trip but on average it was about 19*F Now you got to remember I live at 2,800 feet and McCall, Id tops out at 5,200 feet... So I got climbing, winding roads, reduced speed from snow covered roads, etc...

[ISX]

So you got 18.6MPG going uphill and all that with big tires? What would you normally have got?

[Mopar1973Man]

As for the temp sensor in the VP44 its phyiscally attached to the electronics and is part of the speed sensor module... As you can see there is no way your going to modify that sensor with a ribbon cable inside the VP44...

[Mopar1973Man]

So you got 18.6MPG going uphill and all that with big tires? What would you normally have got?