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Help Me Out


MnTom

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Hey guys (and gals), I am on an RV forum and they have a section for Cummins powered RVs. There is someone on there that for what ever reason seems to try to contradict anything I post there. Here are some of his statements (in bold) about idling:

"X2, The only thing you will hurt on Diesel @Idle is the Turbo, kick it up to 1000 and your good..... let er runthumb.gif"

"Quote:

Originally Posted by MnTom viewpost.gif
I guess I don't understand how you would be hurting the turbo at an idle. For lube the turbo is the first thing to see oil.

"Not enough oil at idle"

"Quote:

Originally Posted by MnTom viewpost.gif
HUH? If there is not enough oil for the turbo at idle there surely won't be enough for the rest of the engine. I know on my 5.9 the oil pressure cold at the the filter head where the turbo get its supply from the oil pressure will go as high as 85PSI and warm it is about 60PSI. That is from a mechanical gauge I installed as a test.

The clearances between rod and crank, crank-journal are a lot less than a turbo, the turbo actually floats in the oil as it spins....."

You can read the whole thread here: http://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/idling-question-229301.html

 

Then there is a discussion about air filters (again, his posts are in bold):

"I use Donaldson filters, good price at Truck it parts a.com, K & N Air Filter ,a little more $$ but ya get what ya pay for."

I countered with this:

"You may want to read this: K&N Air Filter Review - Debunking the Myths (and why OEM is better)"

then.....

"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MnTom viewpost.gif

Never had an issue with K&N even in my off road racing career, but, I have read several threads on here about OEM air filter causing diesel engines to fail as a result of allowing dirt in....., keep using the OEM ones."

Read that thread here: http://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/couple-questions-about-isl-370-a-229696-2.html

 

What I want is more info to counter his statements. Some of you are more "articulate" with a keyboard than I am. Help me show him the error of his thinking.

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I don't see how a turbo spinning very low rpm with almost no load can wear it out even if the oil pressure was low. The low idle thing being bad is purely from cylinder wash occurring. Secondly, the coking of high EGT on the turbine shaft has a lot more effect on performance than any wear on the journal. Thirdly, the journal is brass, the shaft is like carbide steel, the shaft will never wear, the brass will. I saw no wear on my journals when I took mine apart after 300k soo... Plus, I think the turbo spins so fast even at idle (with warm engine oil) that it would easily center itself within the journals with minimal oil as long as the shaft was balanced.

I don't know anything about air filter brands other than repeating after others.

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Also, when Idling, the turbo can leak oil into the compressor.  It's my understanding that it just allows oil to get past the seal, and doesn't have any other ill effects to the turbo.  Besides of course coating your entire intake piping with oil.

 

I'm going to say he's mis-informed.   Back a while ago I had an old turbo (WH1C) that had been in the back of a truck I bought, I wanted to oil the insides of it so I took some ATF and poured it in the inlet,  well within a minute oil was coming out the drain.  Here are some junky pictures I got of it.

 

You can see the hole that the oil feeds through on the top of the outer race (hope that's the right term).

Wh1c_026.jpg

 

Wh1c_030.jpg

 

Like ISX, if I said anything about air filters, I'd just be regurgitating what I've heard.

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I don't know what it's all about on some of those rv forums. I had trouble with a few guys before. Some of them love to stir the pot to the point there's no liquid left.

 

I found out too that once they realize your not interested in playing  the ongoing popularity contest, you get treated badly by the  forum moderator's side kick and croney, who never got moderated btw.

 

This forums a great place... Michael Nelsons' helped loads on my truck and never judges anyone.

Edited by JAG1
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The air filtration industry is a rather misleading one. There are very few independent tests out there which really only leaves the manufacturers claims to go by and they can be quite misleading. "Best flow AND efficiency" is rather contradictory but most all of them claim it. If the fella on the other forum thinks an aftermarket company can offer better filtration than a company like Cummins/Fleetgaurd, there's probably not much help for him. Its easy to find a filter with better flow characteristics but the filter efficiency will be compromised. And who cares about better than OEM CFM numbers anyway unless your dealing with a modified engine, which is highly unlikely in an RV, or the vast majority of diesel powered rigs on the road for that matter.

Here is one of the better dry vs oiled element tests that I have come across. The tests were very short (500 miles) and in a very damp humid climate so while the differences may not seem like much, the results will be multiplied many times over the period of a normal service interval and even more so in a dry dusty climate.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=j9GmVITpJMn5yQS9oIKYAw&url=http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm&ved=0CDQQFjAJ&usg=AFQjCNFSNIdknsdjf2ZXJ7_U4V37VLLBLg&sig2=2Gat4FTeDJtuuuBpK-tzBw

Edited by diesel4life
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I don't know what it's all about on some of those rv forums. I had trouble with a few guys before. Some of them love to stir the pot to the point there's no liquid left.

 

I found out too that once they realize your not interested in playing  the ongoing popularity contest, you get treated badly by the  forum moderator's side kick and croney, who never got moderated btw.

 

This forums a great place... Michael Nelsons' helped loads on my truck and never judges anyone.

 

I had the same thing happen to me as well over on a Admin site.  Some people have chips on there shoulders. :shrug:

 

For the time being I'm just going to pack out of that site. Tired of the constant badgering.

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Here's another link from Cummins stating the difference between 99% efficiency and 99.9% efficiency. As stated in the link a filter claiming 99% efficiency like K&N's initial ratings pass 10 times more dirt than a filter with 99.9% efficiency.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=w9qmVKmgFcT-yQT_u4GgAw&url=http://www.munizhnos.com.ar/folletos/filtros/folleto_Air_Filtration_Technology.pdf&ved=0CC4QFjAH&usg=AFQjCNGq76bELA_tkTxQZ2W5z7XcIXDlWA&sig2=ysP373yMaP_i4DfMBeVtEA

K&N's published numbers.

http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/E-0776.pdf

Even at their claimed 99.48% overall efficiency they are still passing at best 2 times more dirt than OEM filtration.

Edited by diesel4life
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When ever you meet someone who likes to stir it up and is lacking in knowledge about which he pontificates, it is better to turn your back on that person and walk away because you just can't fix stupid.      :shrug:

Edited by IBMobile
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For as long as we both been on the Internet we both have seen our fill of "Class Act's" out there. Like on CF I've got a few people I've tossed into the Ignore bin because I'm tired of there mouth. As for the Admin site I'm just going to walk away because there really isn't anything there noteworthy about the site. Now and then there is a good tidbit. Other than that just idle chatter and b!otchin'. Like over on CompD there is another rude bunch at times too. Then hop over to the RV site I hang on too. (No offense...) There is bunch old farts that think they know everything. I think the only reason I don't get attack there is being a moderator. But I'm getting tired of the same old hum drum what's the best tow vehicle (Ford) and what the biggest 5th wheel I can put on a 1/2 ton truck. :cookoo:

 

Seriously you can't fix stupid....

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Yea, I know there will always be those types. I have had people tell me I am going to kill everyone around me because I sometimes pull two trailers at the same time.......... Like you I have been on these forums long before CF, and even on DieselRam my member number is 555. I still hate to see some of these so called 'experts' spew such inaccurate drivel because there is some newby that is going to see it and believe it.

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The trick to the battle is to have proof of what you talking about. Find it from like Cummins or a manufacture. But to go to a forum fight without ammo is a lost cause... Now you just bickering and arguing with people. That goes back to the days of the 2 cycle oil theory. I remember studying for days hunting for facts and figures on that subject. You might have to do the same thing too.

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The trick to the battle is to have proof fight without ammo is a lost cause...

There is some rather compelling evidence on the Fleetgaurd and K&N link I posted earlier...takes a few minutes to read through but it is hard to dispute. Like how K&N's published efficiency ratings are 99% initial and 99.48% overall and passes 10 times and 2 times more dirt compared to Fleetguards 99.9% efficiency ratings.

Unfortunately people like the guy Tom is talking with think because K&N claim to be the best and they have a million mile warranty, they must be the best on the market.

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Since he seems to have backed off a bit I am just going to sit back and see what he says. I gave him a site to look at about filter tests and he didn't even acknowlege it. It showed his precious K&N was second from the bottom for filtration.

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Thats probably one of the bigger issues with any oiled element is the end user. Too many people fall for the marketing and end up taking a crash course in filter maintenance. I wouldn't want to learn the right and wrong ways on an 8k dollar engine.

I grew up on dirt bikes and ATVs where they have ran oiled elements forever and they seem to work quite well, but they are almost always a 2 stage foam element and I believe they trade a little bit of flow for better filtration than K&N's materials.

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