VP44 No start issue

[64crew4x4]

Hello all....

I have a 99 2500 Auto 4x4.....I just killed my in tank factory lift pump after 340km it in turn killed my reman IP...

I installed a Bosche IP Unit I had on stand by....I cycled the Lift pump 4 times at 25 sec each, then with all 6 lines cracked at injector end I cranked.

Got good fuel squirt out of 4 5 6 holes,so i tightened them down...

Cranked again and got good fuel squirt at 2 so tightened it down.

3rd crank session I got fuel at 1 and 3.....so I tigtened them down

Cycled the Lift pump 2 cycles and started cranking to fire.....

No fire... No codes

After 3 plus hrs of continuos cranking I still have ZERO FIRE and Everything seems to check out

I have power to the IP, Ihave cracked lines several times and I get solid fuel, but not as High pressure as I would expect...?

 

Question I have.... pin 5 at IP is fuel shut off from ECM.....could this keep pressure low and not allow Injectors to be firing..?

 

If I clip this is it a hot or neg when key is in on position..?

 supposed to be on the road yesterday...and I am still dead in the water....

 

Moparman I bounced some things off you last year when I replaced my 53 block with a 2001 engine....Ended up with crank sensor and tone ring out front at crank pulley...been running great till this.....

 

Please Call me if you have any input I will be away from computer till later....thanks,

John in Eugene,Oregon

541-232-9958

[mopartechnician]

What lift pump? Have you tried a sniff of ether. I had a cummins in a crop sprayer give me fits bleeding after doing a head gasket. No matter how much I bled it wouldnt start. Gave it a sniff of ether and fired right up.

Also just because you have fuel to the head, doesnt mean you have good pressure

[64crew4x4]

I did give a whiff of eather...fired right off.. I am sure I have poor pressure,but why is the question...IP is a Boshe Unit

[mopartechnician]

Just because its a bosch doesnt mean the pump is good. What kind of lift pump did you install?

[64crew4x4]

Fass on the block

[64crew4x4]

determined 2nd used unit to be bad ,Thanks for the tips Mike in Ptown.....Install a new unit tomorrow...UGH...... :doh:

[Spiegelmann]

Hello guys hope some one could help me and give some hint!

xj648573 Ram 1999 2500

5.9 vp44

No codes inside pcm ecm

No start

Transfer pump (liftpump) near filter works fine

Am i correct to understand that its enough + and - at 6 and 7 pin (hot wire) to pump ecu for idle work ?! I mean will engine start and work idle if just battery supply to injection pump?! If pump is in good condition?!

p.s. Sorry for my english

[Ilikeoldfords]

Just a quick question. I know you said the lift pump is working fine. What kind of pressure is it putting out? Needs to be around 14psi min and 20psi max. If not, damage can occur to the Injection pump.

[TFaoro]

I agree with the above. You need to get a better lift pump that supplies more volume at a higher pressure. That said it should still start if you're positive you have pressure to the pump.

This is directly from Blue Chip's site.

HOT WIRE TEST - THE "FOR SURE TEST" TO DETERMINE IF THE VP44 IS WHY THE ENGINE WON'T START

It is very rare, but possible, for a problem with the wiring harness or the CAN Bus wires to prevent the engine from starting, so if you want to be 100% sure it IS the Injection Pump causing the no start, follow the following directions exactly, to be sure of not damaging a possibly good pump. This test POSITIVELY eliminates the possibility of overlooking an electrical problem caused by other components that could affect the start or run function of the VP44, as long as you have verified fuel delivery to the Injection Pump. Remove the electrical plug at the back of the Injection Pump and hot wire the pins on the pump as follows. Get two wires long enough to reach from the battery to the VP44. Install an INSULATED ¼ inch female spade connector onto one end of each wire. Connect one INSULATED connector to pin 7 on the pump, which is the pin on the BOTTOM row of the socket on the Injection Pump, closest to the engine, to preferably fused (10 amp is fine) positive battery power in the PDC (Fuse box under the hood), or directly to the positive battery terminal if you like to take risks!.

Connect the other INSULATED connector to the pin directly above the previous connection, the top row of pins, the one closest to the engine, and attach the other end to battery ground. Now try to start the engine and if it doesn’t start, you absolutely positively 100% need an Injection Pump! If the engine starts this way but NOT with the big plug installed on the pump, you know there is something in the harness or CAN bus wiring to the ECM telling or causing the engine to not start. Call me for help if this is the case.

 

So pin #7 (Bottom closest to the engine) HOT

Pin #6 (Top closest to the engine) NEGATIVE

[Spiegelmann]

Hi Thanks for reply, first i get car in dissasembly view, no front gear cover no radiators, ecm drops at floor, no valve cover, no intake heater e t.c. The car is one of friends of mine. They ask to help. So i takes the car to see what can i do, i never work with cummins , but has a 7 year of chrysler dealership work on my back. So call an old friend with drb III. We found no codes in any modules. I only know car just stoped and no starting then, They take Injection pump to bosch and they changed psg ecu and metering and timing solenoid and testbench it. But after install pump back engine wont start

Then i read be chrysler manual and did a bleed procedure, then did all steps that described here http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/lift_pump_diagnostics.html

Using fast start liquid engine start and works idle now, but when it plug in connector it wont, i have checked shut off, and just cut it but it wont start, then i just cut idle control and 2 can wires then it start fine. So the question is? What condition should be to ecm allow firing engine?

12 minutes ago, TFaoro said:

If the engine starts this way but NOT with the big plug installed on the pump, you know there is something in the harness or CAN bus wiring to the ECM telling or causing the engine to not start.

Im intresting about this condition

[Spiegelmann]

Hello again, so engine wont start if CAN bus connected to injection pump. Disconnecting CAN bus allow to start engine. Really dont know where to find problem? Is it ECM problem? With NO start conditions there is no dtc in ecm memory (

 

[TFaoro]

@Mopar1973Man would you like to jump in here and see if you can provide some feedback? I'm not so good with the wiring side of things.

[Scuba64]

I also have a "No Start" issue.  Truck died for third time first time on the road.  The other two times would not start and towed home.  The first two times I was to start - 1st time replaced fuel pump, second time bleed system at banjo fitting at VP44 & fuel filter.  

3rd time I'm not able to start: tried bleeding system at banjo fitting at VP44 & filter, 6 time fake crack (don't know the correct term).  Also, check wiring voltage at VP44.   Did have code 1688 but did check for code until after bleeding at injectors.

I'm doing by my self no help.  New to diesels.

Question is the is there any other test I should perform to ensure it's the VP44?  I'm not sure what the fuel amount should be at the injectors with fake crank. There wasn't much fuel, not high pressure with fuel pump running only.   NOt sure if I caused more issues bleeding at injector with the truck not started.

I did try the CAN bus removal at the VP44- Still did not start

Thanks

 

[dripley]

by fake crank do you mean bumping the starter with no engine start? This will cycle the lift pump and let it run for about 25 seconds. This method is good to reprime the system to the vp44. In order to bleed the high pressure side you need to open some injector lines,1, 3 ,and 4 should work. Then you have to try and crank the engine. The lift pump alone will not purge the air from the high pressure side of things. As air gets out of the lines the engine will try and run. At this time you need to start closing the injector lines off and see if it will start running. It will take several starts for it to run and it will run rough until all the air is purged. Now if the vp is bad it wont start. The 1688 code is not a good sign for the vp. here is some more good info on the VP44.http://bluechipdiesel.com/vp44_diagnostics.html

On 12/5/2015 at 8:44 AM, Spiegelmann said:

Hello again, so engine wont start if CAN bus connected to injection pump. Disconnecting CAN bus allow to start engine. Really dont know where to find problem? Is it ECM problem? With NO start conditions there is no dtc in ecm memory (

 

With what you are describing it would appear it is a connector or wiring issue like Tfaro said. if the connectors are not damaged or corroded then it is most likely in the wiring harness. Wiring is not one of my strong points.

[Mopar1973Man]

15 hours ago, Scuba64 said:

Did have code 1688 but did check for code until after bleeding at injectors.

VP44 has taken damage.

http://articles.mopar1973man.com/2nd-generation-24v-dodge-cummins/59-obdii-error-codes-cummins/227-p1688-internal-fuel-injection-pump-failure

Being that said I would have the alternator tested. Excessive AC noise can and will take out electronic modules.

[Scuba64]

I also have a "No Start" issue.  Truck died for third time first time on the road.  The other two times would not start and towed home.  The first two times I was to start - 1st time replaced fuel pump, second time bleed system at banjo fitting at VP44 & fuel filter.  

3rd time I'm not able to start: tried bleeding system at banjo fitting at VP44 & filter, 6 time fake crack (don't know the correct term).  Also, check wiring voltage at VP44.   Did have code 1688 but did check for code until after bleeding at injectors.

I'm doing by my self no help.  New to diesels.

Question is the is there any other test I should perform to ensure it's the VP44?  I'm not sure what the fuel amount should be at the injectors with fake crank. There wasn't much fuel, not high pressure with fuel pump running only.   NOt sure if I caused more issues bleeding at injector with the truck not started.

I did try the CAN bus removal at the VP44- Still did not start

Thanks

 

Yes by Fake crank - I mean bump start. So, I bump started and bleed the fuel canister, and the banjo fitting on the VP44.  Then I open #1, #3 and #4 and cranked for ~20 seconds , few times tightened each down but no luck starting.   I did have fuel from each injector.    I did check the voltage & pin #6 and #7- did have voltage on #7 and ground on #6.  I didn't do the "Hot Test" since there was voltage and ground on those pins.

I guess time to buy VP44.

I hope you answered 64Crew4X4 question.  Sorry to butt in on his string.

 

[Me78569]

Do a hotwire test to be %100 sure, but I am thinking a vp44 is in your future.

[Scuba64]

I already ordered a vp44 from DAP in Utah and taken everything out except the VP44 (haven't removed the large nut)  But I do have a Banks High-Ram & large exhaust.  I did notice that they tapped a Yellow wire to the VP44- Hope the Banks system isn't the issue.  Not wanting to put everything back in to do that test- but does leave you a little unsure. Wish I would have done that test.  I'll find out Monday or Tuesday when the New VP44 comes in.

The Banks system in TLC Power system ,http://www.bankspower.com/products/show/?option_id=189|9|Diesel%20Trucks%2C%20%0A98-02%20Dodge%20-%205.9L%20Cummins%20ISB|1,

Installed in 2001- so, 14 years. 

Do I need to install , tap the VP44 electronics, the Yellow wire?

what are the best things to do to extend the life of a VP44? (fuel level above 1/2 tank, replace fuel filter every x miles?, ...?)

Any suggestion on a pressure sending unit (I don;t want diesel in the cab- or wife doesn't)

Thanks again

 

[dripley]

I had the Banks Stinger plus on mine. Installed it in 2005. It went south on me about 3 and half years ago. it never stopped running, just messed with the electronics. You will have to tap the pump for the Ottomind to work or you will loose the power it provides. Bare in mind that if you tap the wire it will void the warranty on the VP unless you bought the one that it does not. It is 3 or hundred dollars more.

The 3 best things you can do for the the vp to last is, #1 Good fuel pressure. If you dont have a gauge get one. If you dont want diesel in the cab, use an isolator. keep the fuel pressure between 14 and 20 psi for optimal protection. #2 A good lift pump and filters to provide that pressure and clean fuel. Fass makes a very good electric pump for the purpose and there are a couple mechanical pumps out there that seem to work for several folks here. I dont know much about them. Both style have larger fuel lines for better flow. #3 Start running 2 cycle oil in your fuel. I use super tech from wally world and 1 oz per gallon unless I am running bio diesel then I cut that in half. That is what I have been doing for the past 6 years and it has served me well.  I dont change my filters on a schedule, probably should. but as long as the pressure is steady I dont worry much. I sure to hear about that statement. As far as how far to run the tank down, I run mine to the bottom. I will stretch further while empty than when I am towing. I put 35.3 gallons in my once. Cant believe I do not have to walk that last 500 yds for that fuel.

I am sure that other folks will have more and maybe better ideas for you. Time will tell. 

[Scuba64]

Yea I have the 2 yr no tap unit. Don't need the extra power at this time, no towing. 

Does the 2-cycle oil or Bio clean the system?

I need to find this weekend a pressure gauge.  Do people place on the return fuel line as well?  to see the banjo fitting is working, I think 14 psi.

Thanks for the advice.