Well, the airdog, once again..

[hex0rz]

Why should we even have to buy an extra lift pump for a backup in the first place??

Why would i want to fork over 1300 for two lift pumps to have the equivalent of one?

These products are lacking, and the proof is in the pudding.

Richard Martin told me his belt is still original and its been on for several years. You also need to buy. Am extra set of belts too. They are much cheaper than a lift pump Motor and don't have to wait on them either.

I dunno about the distance from pump thing. But yes friction loss is a factor. Although what does it compare to air dog or fass? With inline filters pre lift pump, compared to post lift pump. The pump also is also ran by mechanical instead of electric. More power imo..

The oem lift pump for priming is optional too. You can use a drill to prime.

Dunno about the oil pan thing..

[hex0rz]

Two things, one, i think we should try and track down what if any of the industrial cummins uses a vp44, and if so, did they have a lift pump, and what?

Two, measuring amp load probably would only tell half the story. Imagine the amp load on cold fuel?

[cbrew]

Two, measuring amp load probably would only tell half the story. Imagine the amp load on cold fuel?

sure it will, it will scale repeatably. it will also give you a heads up when the system is gelling up before the motor cooks.

I have wondered how many failures can be linked to gelling fuel over stressing the motor 

[rancherman]

Two things, one, i think we should try and track down what if any of the industrial cummins uses a vp44, and if so, did they have a lift pump, and what?

Two, measuring amp load probably would only tell half the story. Imagine the amp load on cold fuel?

would need to  jump the pond to   find  industrial  (off road)   vp 33 and 44's..        Our (N.A)   had  a  'gap'  of  about  7-8 years     in  the tier  rating system  for emissions.       

Light duty  diesels,  (found in cars,  passenger use)   was first.

'pickups'  a few years  later(1998.5)      Big boys   next,(2002 or  '03)      and  by  2006   everything  (off road too).       Least with the cummins,   we'd find   p7100  pumps  until  2006    in  off road  use..      From THAT  point,   (CR)     then  came  the   CATS,  DEF,     (yep,   tractors. combines,    have em too)

 

Curious here,    the  ecm   controls  the  fuel pump..   'on or off'.      did it  also   control   SPEED  of  pump too??       So  when   engine idling,    the FP   'idled down too'??    or  was it  balls-out  100% ?

[Mopar1973Man]

Two things, one, i think we should try and track down what if any of the industrial cummins uses a vp44, and if so, did they have a lift pump, and what?

Two, measuring amp load probably would only tell half the story. Imagine the amp load on cold fuel?

 

The industrial Cummins ISB didn't have the tiny Carter lift pump from what I've heard. I've heard rumors of the industrial ISB engine have a different fuel supply system with larger plumbing as well. But this is all unconfirmed.

 

 

Richard Martin told me his belt is still original and its been on for several years.

 

 

Street machine. Now take it out in the wood and push the pump and belt through the sticks, mud, and debris and tell me how long that belt will last? That's the problem with that set up there is nothing to guard the belt from sucking in debris and breaking. I know you live in Idaho and don't stay only to pavement.

 

The oem lift pump for priming is optional too. You can use a drill to prime.

 

I highly suggest you keep a electric prime pump. Because life will suck bad when you get a loss of prime and there is no drill around you or your cordless drill battery just went dead. That's a common problem with DTT Assassin pumps there is no electric prime pump. If there is any chance of loss of prime and no drill... Your stuck.

 

This is why the mechanical pump market never really took off because it does have it's own weakness too.

[diesel4life]

Every ISB I've ever seen in a piece of equipment up until the mid 2000s had a P7100 pump and 12 valve head. And they all have mechanical lift pumps mounted on the engine block. I've seen them in about a half dozen mid sized excavators, large manlifts (130ft+), and 4 or 5 small hydraulic telescoping boom cranes (usually 35 ton and under). Ive never seen a 24 valve head on anything that wasn't CR injection.

[cbrew]

Every ISB I've ever seen in a piece of equipment up until the mid 2000s had a P7100 pump and 12 valve head. And they all have mechanical lift pumps mounted on the engine block. I've seen them in about a half dozen mid sized excavators, large manlifts (130ft+), and 4 or 5 small hydraulic telescoping boom cranes (usually 35 ton and under). Ive never seen a 24 valve head on anything that wasn't CR injection.

you know, this is probably the best reason to install a well tuned p7100 on the truck.. 

[diesel4life]

I don't disagree that the P pumps are more reliable, but I don't think its worth the money and time to convert a 24 valve over for a daily driver. There's just too much involved to make it happen and be reliable and efficient. Besides, there have been enough upgraded parts in the VP over the original pumps that make them much more reliable and resistant to ULSD. Better bushings that won't burr, better solder connections. The early years of the VP were rather dismal but newer updated pumps are an improvement. My former 2000 had the injection pump replaced by the PO at a tick over 75,000 miles. It was still on the truck when I sold it at 340k+, and 3 years later I still see it on the road once in a while. Neither the P.O. nor I ever used any additives either.

Oops, typo on mileage

Edited February 17, 2015 by diesel4life

[cbrew]

oh i agree completely, 

my current VP is only 6 to 7 months old. original lasted 148k

 

i personally hope the truck falls apart before i have to replace the VP again 

[diesel4life]

The biggest failure on reman pumps is in the electronics. Most manufacturers are putting used or reman fpcm and calling it "new". This is misleading marketing hype. There's very few builders that truly put a new fpcm on their pumps, and are more expensive and as a result not very popular. To me the proof is in warranty claims. A good competent builder should have no problem disclosing their number of returned pumps under warranty, again very few do this (only one that I know of)

[Hawkez]

 

I highly suggest you keep a electric prime pump. Because life will suck bad when you get a loss of prime and there is no drill around you or your cordless drill battery just went dead. That's a common problem with DTT Assassin pumps there is no electric prime pump. If there is any chance of loss of prime and no drill... Your stuck.

 

I've never lost prime in my fuel boss...at least that was self inflicted.  As for priming without a drill, I imagine that it would prime with the engine cranking.  Unless I am wrong?  I have a spare belt under my back seat and they are simple enough to change.  Richard Martin also told me how long he has been running his, I think it was upwards of a 150,000 miles.  Street machine or not, that is still a lot of miles and no doubt has seen extreme conditions during those years. 

[Ilikeoldfords]

Wow. 150k on the same belt!! There are a lot of serpentine belts that I wouldn't trust to go that far!!

[Hawkez]

Wow. 150k on the same belt!! There are a lot of serpentine belts that I wouldn't trust to go that far!!

I'm pretty sure that is what he told me on the phone a few years ago.  I do remember him saying that it wasn't recommended that they go that long but he wanted to see how long it would go.  These belts are tightened like a serpentine belt, they ride very loose on the pullies. 

[rancherman]

Every ISB I've ever seen in a piece of equipment up until the mid 2000s had a P7100 pump and 12 valve head. And they all have mechanical lift pumps mounted on the engine block. I've seen them in about a half dozen mid sized excavators, large manlifts (130ft+), and 4 or 5 small hydraulic telescoping boom cranes (usually 35 ton and under). Ive never seen a 24 valve head on anything that wasn't CR injection.

I'm pretty sure they were  still called   BT's ;    4bt, 6bt, 4bta 6btaa..    until  the   CR  system of 2005-2006, for  OFF ROAD  use.    Then  the  designation went to ISB..     from that point,    models  would have the   power rating along with the   ISB;      ISB140,  ISB 170   are  very common  4 cylinders,      ISB 175 and up  would've been the  6 cylinders.

The IS stands for Interact System - it signifies that these engines have full electronic capability to interact with the transmission and other devices. The B part  is a carryover from the old days when engines were given letters as released-    Those  P pumped motors  had   very little  for electronic  communication.  

 

Depending on  tank location,       Some power plants  didn't even use a lift pump.   The  CP3    was  doing it all.    Most  newer tractors  have   their  fuel tanks  at or slightly above  the  CP3's  locale.

My jeep for instance  is  a  suck  clear from tank  instance of  this,  even though the  top of the tank is  definitely higher than the cp3.

 

Ford and  Freightliner are the only 2  others  that  used  a  vp44  pumped cummins  in their   mid size  trucks, (Ford 650,750, and  FL 50-60-70)   that I am aware of.      I wonder what  THEY   used  to  keep the  44  fed?

Edited February 17, 2015 by rancherman

[Ilikeoldfords]

It would be interesting to find out. Anyone have one of these trucks laying around?

[diesel4life]

Ya, don't know where my mind was when I typed that.

[CTcummins24V]

What he said! I'm running my carter pump disconnected (dummy plugs) and then hook it up when I change the filter or injectors for priming. Once the fuel boss is primed I haven't had any issues what so ever. You can run the carter with a hobbs switch, included in the kit, but mine was acting funny so I took it out of the loop. I did run the batteries dead one time when I took the injector lines off and blew them out with air, but I also didn't crack the lines when priming until later in the process. Those belts are only like $12, a small price to pay to have 1 or 2 under your seat. I can't tell if my front crank seal is leaking or if my front oil pan gasket is leaking, but I think leaking front oil pans is one of the few minor issues with a fuel boss/mitusa. 

 

I see a lot of heavy equipment these days, rollers, lifts, dozers with 4bts, vps and carter pumps. I've only see a few with mechanical pumps, some of the deeres.

[rancherman]

It would be interesting to find out. Anyone have one of these trucks laying around?

Just a google away!   BRB!

 

....   Meh,   not much to report!      same ol     inlines  or  intank  units..   Plus    just as  many posts  in   heavy truck  forums    wondering  about     vp44  failures...

Edited February 17, 2015 by rancherman

[diesel4life]

Fed Ex had so many problems with the early VPs they threatened to drop their contracts with FL. After some negotiation, Bosch developed a better FPCM (read more expensive) for the VP. I don't know for sure why Dodge didn't end up with the better FPCMs but I'm guessing price was a big factor. The FL chassis with the VP experienced far fewer failures with the upgraded FPCM. These are the same units Blue Chip uses on their pumps, hence one of the reasons the higher cost (NEW upgraded vs REMAN like 95% + of builders use on their pumps.)

Edited February 17, 2015 by diesel4life

[diesel4life]

This info is from BC website and is dated so there have been some changes in the rebuild process since this was posted but the FPCM info is still valid (at least as of 2-3 years ago when I bought my pump.

"Over the last two years we have developed the most cost effective way to deal with the problem fuel systems on trucks with the VP44 injection pump. We have made for us a superior VP44 injection pump that admittedly costs more up front but works much better and lasts much longer. This is the result of a lot of research and keeping our ear to the ground in this industry to stay on top of our game and offer the best upgraded pump available. All of our rebuilt pumps come with a NEW upgraded housing and a NEW upgraded computer as these components have been the cause of the most problems.

The housings on the VP44 wear out due to low fuel pressure from bad lift pumps causing the diaphragm in the front of the pump to rupture. This causes the steel timing piston to vibrate in the aluminum bore of the housing and the result in a short time is the housing wears to the point that fuel bypasses the piston and full advance cannot be accomplished which causes the code 216. This makes perfect sense to me as it explains why as 24 valve trucks get older the fuel mileage goes down steadily, and when we replace the injection pump with one that has a new case we get the mileage back! In a typical competitor's rebuild, if the case isn't worn out completely and the timing can be reached on the test stand then it passes the test and a partly worn out case gets to the customer, just to fail sooner. It should also be pointed out that the replacement housings we use, have a brass/bronze insert for the timing piston, which the original housings did not have. The code 216 only tells you that the housing is worn out, but does NOT cause any drivabilty issues, other than lost power and fuel mileage. As these symptoms come on slowly the driver isn't aware of the change until they drive one of our replacement units and get back the power and mileage.

The other component that causes morel of the drivability issues is the computer on the top of the injection pump. The computer gets intermittent and eventually dies because of too many heat cycles. When you shut the truck off the latent heat in the engine heats up the computer and after many heat cycles the solder that holds the electrical components to the circuit board becomes crystalline and no longer makes a good electrical connection causing intermittent drivability issues, such as "dead pedal" which dissapears if you shut off the truck and restart it, intermittent hard cold start, intermittent hard hot start and white smoke occasionally.These drivability issues usually get so bad that the customer finally takes the truck in for diagnosis, only to find none of these issues create a diagnostic code or a so called DTC. This makes it hard for the inexperienced mechanic to advise the customer honestly or accurately.

Federal Express experienced so many computer failures that they convinced Bosch to make them a special computer to deal with this issue, because the so called improved computer that most rebuilders use, doesn't work or last much better than the old ones. Well as you might have guessed by now, ALL of our pumps come with a new Fedex style computer. This computer is the one used on Fedex's Freightliner chassis used in so many of their delivery trucks. One of the problems we had to overcome to be able to use this computer was the difference in the software in the Freightliner computer. The maximum RPM is limited to 2500, which won't do in a Dodge application, and the rest of the software makes the Dodge run badly. WE figured out how to get Dodge software into the Fedex computer and it works great. It is exactly the same software Dodge uses so it works fine with all aftermarket devices. Our competitors don't often replace the computer as it is expensive and if it works on the test stand then it must be okay! It isn't tested in prolonged heat and or cool in the typical rebuild process so it may act differently when in the field in your truck."