Advanced timing with Blue Chip Special X VP44

[Greenlee]

I agree with the above statements. It sounds like a combination of dirty injectors and a slow spooling turbo. I recently installed 100hp injectors from DAP and with my slightly larger than stock turbo I really have to try to make smoke. Runs surprisingly clean and cool. I would start with injectors since they are cheaper than a turbo.

 

I agree, It's obvious something is wrong if you are running 100hp injectors and a larger turbo even if it is slightly or not and have no smoke issues. The ATS 4000 Turbo is in the $1800 range if I remember right. It would cost some money to change injectors but not as much as replacing the Turbo

[TFaoro]

Does DAP buy their injectors or do them in house?

Built in-house 

[Mopar1973Man]

I understand what you are saying but it's a hard pill to swallow after spending a lot of money for a new after market. You are probably right but I hope there is something else that can be done that won't break his pocket book.

 

Not really unless he want to upgrade more to Compound Turbos. Need more boost pressure down lower RPM's to get the fuel lit off.

[Greenlee]

Built in-house 

I would say that is good to know...will they rework the DDP injectors or would Bill have to buy injectors they sell?

[Greenlee]

Not really unless he want to upgrade more to Compound Turbos. Need more boost pressure down lower RPM's to get the fuel lit off.

I think that would be a better way to go with his investment.

[Greenlee]

 

Brian Bailey, Injector Sales & Admin

Dynomite Diesel Products

13675 Roosevelt Rd SE

Monroe, WA 98272

P: 360-794-7974

F: 360-794-6890

I did ask Brian if he could share how injectors are tuned or adjusted provided the information was not a trade secret protected by the Company. This is what Brian wrote.

 

Hi Paul,

 

There are many ways we can change the characteristics of an injector and many of those are indeed trade secrets.  Also specifically referring to the smoke level of a given injector is very difficult to quantify because everyone’s tolerance to smoke is going to be very different.  This is subjective….   We try extremely hard to make our injectors as clean as possible and in general are known as having extremely clean injectors for their given power output.

 

As for your injectors we did find some minor contamination in the nozzle.  Specifically in the pintle seat area which would cause your complaint of excessive smoke/haze.  Based on what we saw it is most likely that the contamination was introduced during the install of the injectors.  Normally any contamination found is not covered under warranty but we decided to cover it for you.  We cleaned the injectors, replaced the nozzles, & confirmed the POP pressures were correct.

 

 

 

[k9macho]

Really appreciate all the replies; at this stage, turbo replacement is out of the question $$$ unless I go back to my stock turbo. The DDP injectors are brand new out of the box, but I have reinstalled my stock injectors which produce no smoke on tunes 0-3 and then only mildly on 4 and 5 until I come up with a solution. I am currently in the process of rebuilding the original engine as this so called "130k" motor I just installed has excessive blow by. Once I have completed the rebuild I will probably reinstall the 75 hp injectors and I have an AirDog 100 ready to go on the fresh engine. If after my rebuild I still have excessive smoke on the lower tunes I will probably step down to 40 or 50 hp injectors or maybe just stay with the stock ones as the truck runs very strong with them, granted not as strong as with the 75's but, it's something I can live with.

[TFaoro]

rv275's paired with a hx35, he351cw, or even a 62mm phatshaft would work really well!

 

The 4000 is a 63/70/14. With such a large exhaust wheel it's hard to get moving, not to mention the larger a/r (14cm). All of the ones above would spool significantly faster, and that's why I went with the phatshaft 62/65/12. 

[k9macho]

Thanks Tyler, I guess the main reason I went with a 4000 instead of a 3000 was I was more concerned with holding a steady 70 mph speed while towing up the mountain rather then getting everything moving, also lowering my EGT's was another big concern. With the stock, I had really overheated a few times pulling the mountains and the 4000, according to my research, was good for 200 degrees less than the 3000 keeping EGT's below 1400 degrees, which I have still never seen. When I was completely stock I had tractor trailers passing me on a 4% grade and that's when I decided to do some mild upgrades. With my current setup, she still comes off the line well and even the lag with the turbo spooling is barely noticed even with the camper attached. Like I had mention earlier since I took the 75's out and went back with stock, she is still very driveable and tows well but the difference between the injectors is like night and day. I am planning on have my other engine built and in the truck by December, so I'll let everyone know how it comes out.

[Greenlee]

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2015 at 10:47 PM, Greenlee said:

no other devices being used on the truck. I was asking about using a fuel box to control the smoke. Chips is over $1K and it can't be the only one on the market. I agree on is this an advance problem of not. Fourth paragraph down on the VP pumps on Chips web site states that with this pump customers should be aware that injectors 100hp or more will make the idle lope like a gaser does with a big cam BUT WON'T HURT ANYTHING according to Chip?????? Who knows, it certainly caused an issue with me with 75hp injectors.

I'm back reading all of this again, I need to correct part of what I wrote. I contaminated one of the 75HP injectors unknowingly and it was the main reason I had to drive it with an egg between my foot and accelerator pedal. The injectors have not been installed yet because my younger brother bought the 24v from me and I gave him the injectors. His lack of Diesel Knowledge has cost him considerably.

I think he is going to have the injectors installed to help give him a little more HP and Torque for towing. In the last few weeks the old 99 has been running great thanks simply to the alternator replacement, erratic voltage was the reason the lift pump pressure was varying and mileage fell off. It was the source of the harmonic sound as well. Mileage is back up to 22 mpg at 75 mph. Two nights ago I was asked by my brother if there were any tuners that would work well with the 99. He is looking at a 5th wheel to pull but I mentioned he needed to add gauges above all first. I hope by reading this info again I can see what would be a good tuner to use with the Special X that is on the 99. 

Thanks for all the input and information on this post.

 

[Greenlee]

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2015 at 12:05 AM, TFaoro said:

You're getting close, but the timing is electronically controlled by the ecm. I have no idea how he mechanically advanced it, but i'm sure there's a way.

Something I wanted to ask but didn't. The Special X is advanced but it didn't increase the RPMs at idle so do you think the ECM is also programed to interface with the advanced timing of the Special X? Would the ECM programing be the main way to set the idle? Does the APP hooked up at the throttle have any adjustment for RPMs at idle?

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2015 at 8:46 AM, flagmanruss said:

Good, we're getting some clarity now.  Next question is the interaction of the crank position indicator with the injection signal. 

The break down of the VP44 indicated by the pictures posted are priceless, I would have torn into it just to see what makes it tick, thanks Michael. 

[Dieselfuture]

I don't think advancing timing internally on the VP has anything to do with idle RPM. All that does is inject fuel sooner, and probably only beneficial for high RPM race application. As far as I know ECM controls idle when there is zero TPS input not vp. I really see no benefit to internally advanced timing vp44 now that we have Quadzilla with V2 control. Thank you @Me78569 

[Greenlee]

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2015 at 10:39 AM, TFaoro said:

To me it sounds like the timing is so advanced in the low RPM range that it's making the turbo harder to spool and smoking more. (Less timing spools the turbo faster, then after the turbo has spooled advanced timing makes more power)

This does not sound like anything wrong with the fuel system, just some advanced timing.

You can probably learn to drive it smoke free in time. I have a smarty, and big injectors.... If I stuff it to the floor off of idle it will black out the road bad enough no one can see through the smoke. That said, I have learned to drive with a light foot until the turbo spools and the fuel can be burned.

This just caught my attention, Timing Is So Advanced in the low RPM range, makes sense that the turbo can't spool up any faster because the timing is not being retarded but stays advanced. Once the turbo spools up the smoke clears but the RPMs come on too fast between gear changes. It isn't easy to keep the RPMs below 3,000. I am assuming the valve springs are floating just a little. What a huge difference adding 50 to 75 HP. I bet on a stock VP44 with the same injectors the smoke wouldn't be as bad.

 

I'm kind of talking my way back through all of this and don't expect any responses. It does make it clear what's going on.

[Mopar1973Man]

14 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

I really see no benefit to internally advanced timing vp44 now that we have Quadzilla with V2 control.

 

This is exactly true... Special X pumps and Hot Rod pumps are now a thing of the past. 

 

The other problem like I've learned in tuning now is everyone forgets about their fuel cetane rating. My current tune is bit retarded compared to stock in the cold weather. Being the fuel ignition ability is better as cetane goes up so adding timing on high cetane fuel will actually increase engine load (fuel consumption).

[Greenlee]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 7:46 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

 

This is exactly true... Special X pumps and Hot Rod pumps are now a thing of the past. 

 

The other problem like I've learned in tuning now is everyone forgets about their fuel cetane rating. My current tune is bit retarded compared to stock in the cold weather. Being the fuel ignition ability is better as cetane goes up so adding timing on high cetane fuel will actually increase engine load (fuel consumption).

I can see how I had tunnel vision concentrating on Chip's comments and the total lack of understanding on the VP44. Not knowing about the software built into it or the ECM or the rest of everything PDD, IAT, Crankshaft trigger for fuel and so on which I am still learning about. Oh don't let me forget the lack of Boost and not being able to Spool up fast enough. Thanks for putting up with my nonsense.

Now, I have been looking a videos on th

I think this would be a great tuner to deal with the advanced built in timing of Chips Special X VP44. You can shut timing advance completely down until spooling has kicked in for one and there are so many other options to get the best and safest performance out of your truck including tow packages. Comparing it to the Smarty for this particular situation looks like the Q would be best. What do you think? Is it worth a try to get things back on track?

[Me78569]

Yes you could use the Timign reduction settings to pull timing until the turbo is lit.  

[Greenlee]

4 hours ago, Me78569 said:

Yes you could use the Timign reduction settings to pull timing until the turbo is lit.  

Thanks Me78569, By putting it off for a few years a superior Quadzilla Super Tuner has evolved to save the day. It even figured out the mysterious Advanced Timing Special X Blue Chip VP44 and how to handle the slow spool up plus the unlimited number or programing options you have with the Big Quad. Makes me want to sell my 12 valve and go back to the 24 valve. How in the world you and Michael every figured the programing parameters to make this a great turner for 1998 1/2 on up the ladder is amazing. 

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:11 PM, Dieselfuture said:

I don't think advancing timing internally on the VP has anything to do with idle RPM. All that does is inject fuel sooner, and probably only beneficial for high RPM race application. As far as I know ECM controls idle when there is zero TPS input not vp. I really see no benefit to internally advanced timing vp44 now that we have Quadzilla with V2 control. Thank you @Me78569 

Now that I understand a little more about how it all works I agree completely. I guess Blue Chip used the little bit of advance to gain the extra HP but like you said, zero TPS input is going to give you idle. Nothing Special about it and would be better off if the VP44 was simply a good stock one build to last and let the Quad take it from there.