Just got my 02 back from an extensive build from a local shop. The more I read about stacking, the dumber I seem to feel. The guy that writes the MM3 tunes for my shop recommended flashing the ecm with the mm3 tunes, and then putting in an Edge comp box through the data link to be able to "full field" the injection pump. Set up in this way, do these two work together? If they do, how can I set things up (things meaning wires lol) so that I can adjust both on the fly? Currently the edge is adjustable on the fly but to change levels with the mm3 I was told I would have to disconnect the edge and use the data link, then reconnect the edge when done. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I would just tell them you don't want to stack tuners.  The mm3 custom tuning should stand on its own.  OR the edge should stand on it's own.  

 

"whats the point of a custom tune if you are just going to put a boxed tune on top of it?"     

 

 

take the edge off and see how it runs without it.  If you want more power then either, run the edge without the mm3 tunes or step up injectors and use the custom tuning mm3 provides.

 

 

Thank you sir! I greatly appreciate all of your help!

Just remember the mm3 is only a 60 HP box on our truck nothing more than a Smarty s-03 tuner. If you have the full meal deal with all the software, dongle, etc. That is a very expensive tuner for only 60 HP. There is no way to get more out of that mm3 on our trucks. It was actually designed more so for CR engine that mm3 will now do about 210 HP. 

 

Just a heads up tho... Quadzilla is 180 HP tuner design mostly around the VP44.

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Just remember the mm3 is only a 60 HP box on our truck nothing more than a Smarty s-03 tuner. If you have the full meal deal with all the software, dongle, etc. That is a very expensive tuner for only 60 HP. There is no way to get more out of that mm3 on our trucks. It was actually designed more so for CR engine that mm3 will now do about 210 HP. 

 

Just a heads up tho... Quadzilla is 180 HP tuner design mostly around the VP44.

~60 hp on stock injectors.  

 

I like to say %20 over stock tuning.  

Just now, Me78569 said:

~60 hp on stock injectors.  

 

I like to say %20 over stock tuning.  

Exactly.  
 

There is far more to a custom tune than total duration increase.  
 

The MM3 is far more advanced than the Quad in terms of total tuning, which is the point of a custom tune. 

3 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

Exactly.  
 

There is far more to a custom tune than total duration increase.  
 

The MM3 is far more advanced than the Quad in terms of total tuning, which is the point of a custom tune. 

It is, I wish the vp world didn't get it last as it was already to late for it to be popular.  The quadzilla solved the bulk of the custom tune need for the vp44 masses, but it is not the same level as mm3.  

 

 

The Quad was designed with a different goal than full custom tuning.  

Edited April 21, 20204 yr by Me78569

5 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

The MM3 is far more advanced than the Quad in terms of total tuning, which is the point of a custom tune.

 

True... But way more complex than the Quadzilla being duration is measured in mm3 and timing is dealt with way differently. Still limited by CANBus limitations and VP44 limtations. Which is nothing like CR engines. Which the Quad makes up with Wiretap and breaking the limitations of the CANBus, ECM and VP44. mm3 Has to play by ECM and VP44 rules.

 

Edited April 21, 20204 yr by Mopar1973Man

Just now, Mopar1973Man said:

 

True... But way more complex than the Quadzilla being duration is measured in mm3 and timing is dealt with way differently. Still limited by CANBus limitations and VP44 limtations. Which is nothing like CR engines. 

But the MM3 deals with it in the manner that the OE tune was written, and replaces the OE tune vs modifying it. 
 

I’ve never been a fan of changing the OE signals. It just not as clean or reliable as changing the tune. 

1 minute ago, AH64ID said:

But the MM3 deals with it in the manner that the OE tune was written, and replaces the OE tune vs modifying it. 
 

I’ve never been a fan of changing the OE signals. It just not as clean or reliable as changing the tune. 

Agree'd a piggy back system is not as desirable from a technical standpoint.  

 

things would look a lot different if MM3 came out for VP's ~5 year before it did.         

 

Comparing the Quadzilla to mm3 is like comparing apples to oranges.   They are both tuners, but different goals, and different expectatins.  

The cheetah I got is a 63/91. I'm definitely not opposed to changing to a quadzilla. At this point, $700 is a bargain at 5 times the price if it means getting everything working together at best potential/efficiency. Which one would you recommend and any suggestions or notes?

The shop that I'm going through suggested the mm3 which is why I went that route to begin with. The ecm tuning side of things is where I check my pride at the door and listen to more knowledgeable people. I know my questions are probably annoying and laughable, but I do greatly appreciate the help.

I would say you need bigger injectors for that turbo.  125's are better suited for stock to mildly upgraded turbo.  

 

a 63/91 is going to need some fuel to get going.  

 

I wouldn't hop off the mm3 yet as the quad will still prefer more fuel.    

 

I'd be looking for some 7 x .011's or even 7 x .012's and proper tuning with the mm3.    heck even some 6 x .013's 

 

 

Makes sense why they wanted to stack the edge as you need a ton of duration with those small injectors to get that turbo going.    rather than stack and run duration through the roof you should use bigger injectors and less duration.     

Edited April 22, 20204 yr by Me78569

Even running the 7 x 0.010 @ 320 bar, Quadzilla and HX35/40 hybrid turbo 60/60/12... Spools really good. With wire tap it can get rather hot. 

Edited April 22, 20204 yr by Mopar1973Man

Wiretap can get hot regardless because it makes it so fuel is injected over an EXTREMELY large angle of rotation.    I read the math somewhere at some point and it was crazy long amount of angle of rotation.  

Edited April 22, 20204 yr by Me78569

9 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Wiretap can get hot regardless because it makes it so fuel is injected over an EXTREMELY large angle of rotation.    I read the math somewhere at some point and it was crazy long amount of angle of rotation.  

What do you mean by angle of rotation? That one sailed right over my head.

so fuel is injected over time.  During that time the engine is spinning, the point of rotation related to TDC changes throughout the injection event.   The longer you inject fuel the more the engine has rotated.    

 

As you reach the extremes of this you start to have a less efficent burn.    VP44's and wiretap happen to have a HUGE change in the rotation angle related to TDC when you are running your tuners on " kill" . 

 

 

I am pretty fuzzy about this anymore, but I want to say it was something like 80*-120* of difference in the point of start of injection and end of injection related to TDC.    You would have to do the math, but it was a lot regardless.

 

 

CR trucks use no where near as much duration as VP trucks do because they are much more efficent at injecting fuel in terms of MM3 injected vs time.

 

 

Edit: found it at 3200 rpm with full wiretap and full canbus the vp44 tuners command an injection event for 96* of rotation.

Edited April 22, 20204 yr by Me78569

Thanks. That soaked in.

Ummm. Yeah. Definitely not having fuel shortages. I head in to work at roughly 6PM. I'll try and get a video of the exhaust accelerating up the ramp onto I65 in 6th gear. The mm3 is set to level 2, I'll put the comp box on 3x1

That's a tune issue and not related to possible efficenty.  

 

The edge being on level 3 is adding a good bit of duration on top of your mm3 tune.   Having datalogged the edge's lvl 3 stuff I know why you have over fueling.  

Bigger injectors allow you to run less duration and make the same power.  125's are not big enough for that turbo.  what happens is you end up with an aggressive tune to make up for the lack in the injector's ablity to flow fuel.  Smoke and heat are the result of that.   

 

 

 

Since you asked for our opinion. 

if it was me I would ditch the edge, run only the mm3 and get your tune sorted.  If you are unhappy with overall power at that point then injectors need to happen, not more tuning.  That 63 turbo should flow enough air for 7 x .011 or 6 x .013 injectors.     

 

your injectors are what most guys run for a stock to ~60 mm inducer turbo.   to get on top of that turbo your tune has to run a ton of duration and even then you are really not pushing the turbo.    Mike is running bigger injectors with his much smaller hx35/40 hybrid.   

Edited April 22, 20204 yr by Me78569

Ok. Thank you for your patience with my ignorance, I'm on a steep learning curve here lol. If it's not too much to ask, can I post a video of my dash getting onto I65 and maybe get a ROUGH guesstimate of possible issues? The damn thing pulls, and pulls hard , but I'm OCD for things running to a "tea and crumpets" level of proper if that's understandable.

remove the edge.  

 

 

there is no point in troubleshooting the tuning while you are stacking stuff.  you, me, and the tuner have no idea what box is to blame.