leathermaneod

Hi all, So I have a new Valair single disc clutch with all new components, and new OE hydros from Napa. I have about 1000 miles on the hydros and 550 on the clutch. Today I noticed that sometimes, as I'm slowly letting up on the clutch pedal, it feels like it is sticking or binding kind of. It is only minor and only when I let the pedal out very slowly, which I normally do, and even then its not all the time. Its like it will just kind of hang up slightly then let go and release more quickly than I want it to. I am sure the clutch and components are installed correctly as I and my dad did it together and we are both pretty competent in this area. We also had the help of a friend who is a lifelong mechanic. I checked the FSM and didn't find too much except to grease the pedal pivot point. But in the case of binding, it says to replace the hydros. Since they are new maybe I could grease the pushrod? How would I do that? Just smear some synthetic grease on the pushrod and work it in and out? Has anyone else ever experienced this and or found a solution or have any other ideas?

I appreciate the advice. Drilling the holes would certainly be worth trying if there is no other good option. I'm not sure how hard it would be to drill them in the right spot while dealing with the threads on the shaft though. Right now its looking like my dad an I are going to pull the trans an take it to a reputable local shop for them to go over it and deal with 5th gear if there is an issue. Then we'll install the clutch and trans. So heres a story for you all. I actually just ordered 2 rear main seals. I called cummins to place the order and they told me that the one with the wear sleeve didn't come with an installation tool :-(. I also asked if you can use the one that come with a wear sleeve, without the wear sleeve if you don't need it. The parts guy wasn't sure as he said the seal part numbers were different. He recommended I just start with the one that came with the install tool unless I really need the wear sleeve. I also told him that my FSM says that if there is a wear mark, you can just set the seal in a little deeper. He said he didn't know but offered to transfer me to service so I could ask them. I tried to ask them, but I couldn't talk to a tech, but rather some lady that answered the phone. I'm pretty sure she was convinced that I had a Dodge truck with a Dodge engine not a Cummins. She said she asked a tech about setting the seal deeper and they said not too, but then I asked her if they thought 250,000 miles would cause my truck to have a wear mark and she said, "in a dodge pickup truck yes, that would be time for some major engine work. Now if it was an 18 wheeler it would be more like 500,000." Thats why I say I'm pretty sure she thought I had a Dodge engine lol so i ordered both figuring ill return the one i don't need.

Very interesting! Thanks for the heads up on that. I'll have to do some more research on that particular clutch and have another talk with fred about it.

I really appreciate your response! That is an interesting take on how to fix the fifth gear nut. I hadn't heard of dimpling it like you suggest before. The only issue I can see with that is, wouldn't that weaken the shaft? If welding can weaken it enough to break it couldn't drilling small holes do the same? I sure do know what you mean about doing things right though. That's why I am agonizing over parts and how to best handle this situation. I do have a limit on how much I want to spend right now though. I'm trying very hard to find a balance between doing everything that needs to be done and not going overboard.

I actually called both SB and Valair yesterday. I should have clarified before, I wasn't against calling them, I just wanted some real world experiences from people that had them. I didn't want to just take their word for what I needed. SB is just way to expensive, minimum $850 from them. Valair is better at $599 and Fred at DAP, who I also talked to today, said that he personally prefers Valair. Both SB and Valair recommended a clutch that includes a 13" flywheel kit for the power that my truck makes. The part number for the Valair is NMU70279-01-5SCE. I think that is the one ill be going with. I am currently in the process of trying to figure out what all else I want to replace at the same time. The list just keeps getting longer and my bill for parts is upwards of $1200 by now :-( Basically I'm looking at rear main seal, the clutch kit, a new fork, new pivot ball, new input bearing and bearing cup and trans front seal as well as trans pilot bearing, trans rear seal, T case input and output seals as well as rear output bushing. Then add the $100 in Mopar trans fluid. Now for the two dilemma's I have reached. What should I do about fifth gear while I have this thing apart? Truck has 254,xxx miles and I don't know if anything has ever been done to 5th gear. The guy at Quad 4x4 said that if it is still stock, and not loose, there is a good chance its not going to fail. Heres the thing, I want to have a solution ready incase I tear it down and find a loose or modified nut. I will be working on a limited amount of time, thats the reason for being prepared ahead of time. So my options are, 1) use the retainer made by Active transmission with the 4 teeth that engage with the nut, its easy to find on google if you don't know what I mean. It looks foolproof, and they claim no failures, but I found a few threads saying it failed and did a lot more damage than just loosing 5th gear. The other downside is that it costs $155. 2) Get a new updated nut with setscrews and use a ton of lock tight. Its cheap, only $25, but it seems they are about 50/50 on wether or not they work. 3) pretty much out of the question unless I can find an EXPERT welder, but there is always tacking the nut in place and hoping the shaft doesn't shear off. 4) Final option is kind of an overall for the trans to make sure I don't screw anything up. It is to pull the trans and T case and take them to a local trans shop that my dad recommended for them to look over and do whatever work they think it needs, i. e. input shaft bearing or not, seals if it needs them, best fifth gear fix they know of ect. not including a full rebuild because it doesnt need it. Doing a whole new manishaft and fifth gear is not an option right now. I am also a little nervous about doing the seals without the proper tools. That's all I can come up with so far and I need to make a decision on this. Please don't hesitate to give me your opinion and/or any experience you have had with any of these methods! Oh by the way, another issue I'm running into, the one big reason for letting a trans shop look it over and fix 5th gear, I REALLY hate to spend over $100 on the stupid tools to tighten the 5th gear nut and hold the main shaft. Especially when I'm going to use them once or twice and never again. Anyone know of a place to rent them or someone that would loan me them in the Watertown, NY, Boyertown, PA or anywhere in between area? Also, should I get a Speedy Sleeve for the rear main seal right away? or is it likely undamaged?

Well I got the truck checked out by a trans shop that was recommended to me. After driving it, they are very confident that it needs a new clutch and that the shifting problem is caused by it not properly disengaging. They said the overall health of the trans seems to be very good. They want about $1000 total parts and labor to replace the clutch and clutch components. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go home to PA and tackle this myself with help from my dad and a friend or two. We have a place to do it inside so the cold won't be as much of and issue. Now I just need to get the parts and decide what all should be taken care of at the same time. I am already planning on the rear main seal, the pilot bear, throwout bearing, clutch, drive shaft center support bearing. Someone mentioned the input shaft seal and bearing? where should I get those and how do I replace them? also, should I mess with the fifth gear nut? if so where do I get the parts for that? How do I reseal the trans? just RTV? Also if anyone has clutch recommendations let me know. I know people are going to say just call SB or Valair and see what they say but I want your opinions. I know I want/need a single disc. I just want to know if I need something like an SB or if I should save the money and get one from Napa...I don't tow and I don't plan to make any more power. I have 75hp sticks and a smarty. I may downgrade to RV275's when I do injectors, which won't be any time soon lol. I want to be able to tow if I need to though. Biggest thing is I want this thing to LAST. Thanks in advance everyone!

Ok that makes sense. I'll give it a shot tomorrow and report back. Thanks again for all the help!

I appreciate your advice. I just have to find a balance here, I can't afford to "what if?" everything lol. When I mentioned about it jumping after a first start, that is only after it sits and warms up. I normally start it with the clutch in, and when I do, I can shift to any gear just fine. Then, like today after bleeding it, I put it in neutral and got out to clean up my tools. Got back in a few mins later, and tried to put it in reverse. It went in fine but clunked and jumped. If i take it out of gear and leave the clutch in, then wait 10 seconds like you said, and it jumps going into reverse, would that indicate that the clutch is dragging? and if it doesn't then its not? I guess if that proves that its dragging then I will get the trans pulled. In that case I think I would replace the clutch, pilot bearing, throwout bearing, rear main seal, and drive shaft carrier bearing(and anything else in there that the shop specifically says is bad). But I wouldn't trust the shop to tackle the 5th gear nut or replace any syncros...

I will try putting in a high gear tomorrow and then waiting like you said, then try reverse and see what happens. I'll report back with the results. What exactly will this test tell us? To get it in reverse smoothly, I usually just hit first gear, but than can be slightly hard to get into as well, no clunking or jerking of the truck though...And yes I meant it moves the truck when it clunks into gear. I thought that if it did that from a fresh start, having never moved, that indicated that the engine had to be spinning up the trans...is that incorrect? I guess I don't totally understand how this all works and what components should be spinning at what times...another thing worth mentioning is that sometimes when I try to shift into fourth gear, if the clutch is not totally in(i didnt time things right) it will grind just a bit. Not sure if thats normal or not...it happens with the clutch pedal out even the slightest bit... From everything that you have said I take it you are leaning towards me not having any real issue? Just a slightly quirky trans? The biggest thing to try and determine right now is, wether or not this is urgent to address...someone said early on that a bad pilot bearing will ruin the input shaft. And someone else said that a dragging clutch is very hard on the syncros. I have a lot of stuff I'd like to do with this trans out, but its almost impossible for me to do this job myself right now, and I don't trust a shop to do everything I want done. Not to mention I don't think I could afford it lol. So if it is urgent, I'll go to the best shop I know of, and just have them pull the trans and see what components are worn out and have them replaced...not my first choice by any means...otherwise, I'll wait till spring, go home to PA and work on this with my dad. That will give me plenty of time to figure out what all I want to replace/go over while I'm in there, and acquire the parts.

That's interesting about your trans...I wonder what causes it...maybe I don't actually have a real issue then? I can live with it if it's just the way it is but I'm concerned that it's not right and is spinning the trans all the time...when you had issues getting into R, would yours move the truck when it went in or just not go in? I'm really wondering if the flywheel could be warped or something. I do get kind of a shaky launch as I let the clutch out a lot of the time, and my pedal is pretty far off the floor when it starts to grab, and almost all the way out till it's fully engaged. Maybe my clutch is just worn out too. Although I'm not sure how that would cause it to not fully disengage...maybe this is a combination of all these clutch components wearing out...

It's honestly too early to tell if reverse is the only problem, although I was not impressed with the shifting in general today while out and about. It's fine when cold but as soon as things start to warm up it starts acting up. I just got done attempting to bleed it though and there is absolutely no change at least as far as reverse goes. As soon as it idled for a couple mins and I tried to shift to reverse it clunked and jerked. So what do I look at for a cause now? Pilot bearing? Warped flywheel? Damaged clutch? I guess the only thing to do is pull the trans and inspect everything? Something else I forgot to mention, the jerk and cluck when going into reverse happen even if the truck hasn't moved at all. After I got done bleeding the system, I started the truck and it worked fine at first, but after it sat warming up for a few minutes I got the usual jerk and clunk on shifting to reverse. That was without the truck ever moving. So that proves that something is keeping the trans turning all the time...

Well the problem isn't fixed :-( still jerks real good when shifting into reverse. I'm really starting to think its the pilot bearing, but I guess my next step should be to remove the new hydros and attempt to bleed them and see if any air comes out...what do you guys think? am I on the right track here? Will I have a lot of trouble getting the slave back in now that the little hold down tabs are broken?

haha well I was torn between finding out right then and waiting till tomorrow. Part of me doesn't want to know if its not fixed lol. Mike commented on my similar post on Cummins Forum and said that he has seen problems with air in the pre filled units if they are mishandled, so I'm kinda worried about that now too...I guess I should have messed with it a little to make sure there was no air in it before installing it... hopefully not....it would really stink to still have issues now and not know wether its caused by air or a bad pilot bearing...then have to remove the hydros again just to bleed them...knowing my luck thats exactly how this is going to go...I sure hope not

Thanks for all the info everyone. I got the new clutch hydraulics installed today. I went with a sealed, pre filled unit from Napa. It was about $150. The removal and install really went pretty well. The hardest parts were getting the old unit out and the new one in(so much stuff to work around and fish through). My slave cylinder mounting studs came out rather than the nuts coming off. So I had to clean them up(they were rusty) and put the studs back in. I used blue lock tight on the studs to help them stay in next time. I didn't really drive it yet, but I'm hoping it will fix my issues. The pedal is definitely different. It used to have a ton of free play when all the way out, now it's fairly secure. Time will tell I guess. Oh btw, for anyone planning to do this in the future, be sure to watch Mike's (Mopar1973Man's) video on youtube. It was very helpful!

Ok thanks again dripley. I actually just decided to pull the trigger on the napa unit. I figured its a lot more practical and will save me about $150 over the SB unit, if it fixes the problem. If not, I will return it and get the SB. I'll have to start digging around for info on the booster leak. I am hoping maybe its just clutch fluid that worked its way over there, but I kind of doubt it...maybe someone else who knows about it will chime in too.

Thanks dripley! I appreciate the reply. My other thought was to just keep running without the safety switch. Is there any very compelling reason that I need it? Or would I have less hassle to just leave it bypassed the way it is? Another thing I just noticed is that I have some wetness under my brake master cylinder on the inside of the firewall as well, but I don't have any braking issues and I have a good pedal and the brake fluid is never low. Should I be worried about that too?? So I went out to the truck and looked things over some more. Clutch master cylinder is definitely wet inside and outside of the firewall. Brake master cylinder is also definitely wet inside the firewall but does not seem to be on the outside at all. I also tested the brake pedal with the engine off and it got pretty darn hard. It may have crept down some but nowhere close to the floor and it was very hard, did not seem to be going any lower. It was and always has been pretty slow to return though. I believe I have the Hydro boost brakes. Does all this sound normal? could the wetness by the brake master cylinder just have worked its way over from the clutch?

Just wanted to say that I recommend the Fuel Boss as well! You can run it with no electric pump at all too. That said, you definitely do not want to have the Fuel Boss without a pressure gauge. Just incase you have trouble with the bypass valve at first. :-)

Just wanted to update this for anyone in the future. Last night I found Mike's vid on youtube about his clutch Master and Slave issues and replacement process. He mentioned that his pedal was feeling odd and that there was some wetness under the master cylinder pushrod on the inside of the firewall. Seeing that caused me to remember that I had seen the same wetness in the same place on my truck! I had never worried about it because the reservoir was never low. That made me remeber that I had felt my pedal change very slightly once or twice but I had attributed it to the truck being new to me and me not being used to it or the shop being hard on it when the had the truck and wearing down the clutch. Now everything makes sense! I do need new hydros! Now the question is whether or not to go with Napa parts or Southbend...which do you all think? I also figured out why I don't have the clutch safety switch...one of the PO s just didn't transfer it over when they switched out the master before, or it just went bad and they removed and bypassed it instead of replacing it. So the nice thing about the SB is that it comes with an already installed safety switch, so I would have one that should be trouble free. The only downside is the cost...about $315 for SB or around $160 for parts store...but then I just keep running with no clutch safety...

I really appreciate the help and advice eddielee! I just checked the fluid in the trans and it was fine. I also looked everything else over while under the truck and it all seems tip top. I texted the PO and asked him if he remember the truck shifting hard in cold weather and his response was "yeah and my 6spd(nv5600) is the same way. What does it do, go in gear hard?" So I guess this is all due to the weather. Im just way to OCD about my truck haha.

Alright so I just got back from a 30 mile test drive and getting fuel. I did some shifting without the clutch...I was told by someone on another forum to try it. He said that if it worked without grinding that the syncs are good. Anyway about the time i got back, another member told me thats its very hard on the syncs and will eventually damage them. Hopefully the damage is very "eventual". In the future I will take his advice and not do so. Over all it went fairly well. I can shift up and down from 2-5. It went well except for a few good shudders/bangs from the front end when shifting out of third, and a good clunk when going into 4th. The one time shifting out of 3rd was really bad and I was really scared I broke something for real. I think a bump in the road may have contributed and it seemed that I let off the throttle at the wrong time. Thankfully, nothing seems broke at this point though. Like I said I definitely won't be doing that anymore. It is kinda fun though especially when the gears "float" in so effortlessly. I can certainly see how it would be really hard on the syncros and the trans in general. I wish I had waited before trying, oh well can't change it now so hopefully nothing is broken or hurt too badly. It seems like the cold temps may just be the majority of the issue. Or possibly, aggravating a future issue that is only very slight at this point. It was 40*F when I went for the drive today and I drove 30 miles total. I did have a little trouble with second a few times throughout, but pushing the shifter back to neutral and then back to second fixed it. I think part of my problem is that I try to shift too quickly, more like a car. Double clutching didn't seem to make any difference as far as making it easier to get in gear, possibly made it slightly worse lol. Hitting 4th and then 2nd also worked very well when I did have issues. Another interesting thing to point out is that when I first started the truck, I had no problem shifting into second. I did however have a little trouble shifting all the way into first after I shut the truck off when I got home, I had to press the clutch in. I also forgot to mention that lately the truck has been shaking/shuddering a little while letting the clutch out. Not sure if thats significant or not. Thanks once again for the help everyone. Let me know what you think when you read this.

fluid level is good. Now i need to drive it and test out some of this stuff you guys told me about.

I really appreciate your opinion and everyone else's! I don't have enough knowledge or experience to make the call on my own. Yes I normally do make a point of pushing the pedal all the way it, but I will try to think about it more just to be sure. I do have a nice pedal imprint in the carpet under the dash though lol Heres another thing I tried that may indicate something to you guys. I sat in the parking lot at work and let the clutch in and out and each time I tried to put the trans in 2nd, all while not moving. It was pretty tricky every time. Sometimes a little harder, sometimes a little easier, once or twice it made a weird squeakish noise as it went in. Idk if that means anything or not but I figured id mention it to you all. Thanks again for all the help!

Do you mean pull the trans apart too? Or just do the stuff that was already mentioned? And will it hurt anything if I drive it gently and shift to fourth before second? My problem is I don't have the time, money or a place to do this properly right now. I can pay someone if it's urgent but I really hate to do that...

Yes I know exactly what you mean about hearing the load on the engine when you let the clutch out quickly in neutral. I think you explained it all very well. So I guess if double or triple clutching at a stop before trying to shift into second doesn't help the problem that would point to the pilot bearing then?

Thanks dripley! I will definitely give that a try. My next question was going to be if there is anyway to isolate the problem a little more but you already answered that :-) I do have another question though. As I pull up to a light/stop sign and put the clutch in and take trans out of gear, it is normally easy to get right into second gear if I keep the clutch in. For example, stop sign I pull up and down shift without letting the clutch out, easy to get into second. Stop light I pull up, shift to neutral, and let the clutch out while waiting. Put the clutch in and second is hard to get into. Does that indicate anything specific?