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On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, dripley said:

 is that 20% bio mass diesel by any chance?

 

This bio-diesel or bio-mass diesel thing is bugging me.  I carefully looked over the sticker today at one of the diesel pumps here in Oregon.  All it says is either B5 or B20, so I don't know if it is bio or bio-mass.  @dripley, Do you know of any way to get that information?  All I do know is that when I use B20, my fuel mileage increases despite the assumed fewer BTU's.  I have used B20 several times now and each time fuel economy is very good - towing or empty.

 

- John

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8 hours ago, Tractorman said:

 

This bio-diesel or bio-mass diesel thing is bugging me.  I carefully looked over the sticker today at one of the diesel pumps here in Oregon.  All it says is either B5 or B20, so I don't know if it is bio or bio-mass.  @dripley, Do you know of any way to get that information?  All I do know is that when I use B20, my fuel mileage increases despite the assumed fewer BTU's.  I have used B20 several times now and each time fuel economy is very good - towing or empty.

 

- John

Here is what I am seeing more of out my way.

20191223_062851.jpg.e1624d05f4143aa4bcd60d95da3f9fa8.jpg

Some read 20% and a good many say "may contain". I used to seethem marked B5 and B20 like say and for a while the pumps did not have to be labled at all with 5% or less. I have no problem running the blended fuel but it would nice to know what you are getting. The labeling is to vague. 

 

The 2 stations I found in Tennessee were labeled very similar except for the biomass used insted of biodiesel. My mileage went up with the ones labeled bio mass. I do not remember the mix percentage. I got 22.5 mpg at 75 mph on the biomass compare to unlabled fuel or biodiesel labeled pumps. I get 19.5 mpg normally, unless its 20% biodiesel. I get 18.5 to 19 with that mix.

 

post-338-0-90213100-1440595054_thumb.jpg

This is what I saw for the most part several years back. Even more vague. This one is even from Tennessee, but not from the stations I got the biomass.

 

 

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On top those i see this one filling up on the way home.

20191223_140650.jpg.105f44adbe3d9092933d0c53e2ccfdf1.jpg

 

I like the bio fuel but it would be nice to know what you are getting.

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Beyond me...

 

Rare to see biodiesel here in Idaho. Then the price of biodiesel here if you do find its roughly 15 to 30 cents a gallon more per gallon over a gallon of petroleum diesel. Every time I get to Ontario, OR which is biodiesel required state and it just as high as the highest price diesel in Idaho. New Meadows is 3.399 a gallon and Ontario is 3.459. Then if I stop in Payette, ID I get super low price of 3.299 a gallon. When I tested biodiesel from Ontario I took a loss in MPG's always did better with petroleum diesel. 

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Every time I get to Ontario, OR which is biodiesel required state and it just as high as the highest price diesel in Idaho. New Meadows is 3.399 a gallon and Ontario is 3.459. Then if I stop in Payette, ID I get super low price of 3.299 a gallon. When I tested biodiesel from Ontario I took a loss in MPG's always did better with petroleum diesel. 

 

It is always interesting to see such differences in fuel prices just a few miles apart.  Prices for B5 diesel fuel is currently $3.32 /gal at three different stations in Baker City, just 70 miles north of Ontario.  Price for B20 in John Day is $3.03 /gal, B5 - $3.40 /gal and for B20 at Safeway in Molalla, Or is $3.00 /gal and B5 - $3.40 /gal at other nearby stations.  Safeway only sells B20. 

 

It is the B20 in both mentioned locations that is giving me improved fuel economy.  You have to remember that I am making my comparisons from B5 diesel (mandated in Oregon) to B20 diesel.  I will be monitoring the differences more closely in the future. 

 

Was the tested Biodiesel from Oregon B5 or B20?  Have you ever tested B20?  I think you are comparing Oregon mandated B5 diesel to Idaho regular diesel, so likely we are not making like comparisons being that regular diesel anywhere in Oregon is B5.

 

- John

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Me its about the monthly budget. Currently about $600 to $650 a month in fuel to keep Mom going to dialysis. Then you break it down and figure the cost per mile 0.16 to 0.19 cents per mile. Then when looking at fuel prices...

 

On 12/26/2019 at 9:03 AM, Tractorman said:

Price for B20 in John Day is $3.03 /gal, B5 - $3.40 /gal and for B20 at Safeway in Molalla, Or is $3.00 /gal and B5 - $3.40 /gal at other nearby stations.

 

10 gallon price - I use this measure more so than price per gallon. I never buy just 1 gallon. Typically 12 to 14 gallons.

John Day - 30.39

Molalla - 30.09 34.09

 

Ontario for me... 

Ontario - 34.59

Payette ID - 32.99

New Meadows 34.59

Riggins - 33.59

 

Cost per mile is a measure also that shows rate of usage vs cost. MPG is only a small window of info.

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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On ‎12‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 5:35 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

When I tested biodiesel from Ontario I took a loss in MPG's always did better with petroleum diesel.

 

My question (just curious) is:  When you tested the bio-diesel from Ontario, Oregon and took a loss in mpg, was the fuel B5 (the mandated 5% bio-diesel) or was it B20? 

 

The reason I ask is because each time I use B20, which is about 30 cents / gal cheaper, I see an improvement in fuel economy.  I have seen this mpg improvement over several trips during this last year.  Also,  @dripleysaid that he experienced an improvement in fuel economy when he used bio-mass diesel.  These mpg improvements seem to defy the logic that there is less thermal energy in bio-diesel or bio-mass diesel, so what gives?

 

Something that @dripleybrought to my attention - there is bio-diesel and there is bio-mass diesel.  I am assuming that I it is bio-diesel that is sold here in Oregon, but I don't know that for a fact.  I am still trying to find out.

 

- John

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Some research I did a few years ago on this subject.   

 

Posted March 10, 2016

1.  From U. S. Department of Energy:  Alternative Fuels Data Center:  http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/biodiesel_blends.html

"Pure biodiesel (B100) contains about 8% less energy per gallon than petroleum diesel. For B20, this translates to a 1% to 2% difference, but most B20 users report no noticeable difference in performance or fuel economy."

2.  From U.S. Department of Energy:  National Renewable Energy Laboratory:  100,000-Mile Evaluation of Buses Operated on Biodiesel Blend (20):  http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy07osti/40128.pdf

"The fuel economy for both petroleum diesel and B20 groups was 4.41 mpg based on in-use fleet data. An approximately 2% reduction in fuel economy for B20 was measured in laboratory emission testing."

3.  From Pacific Biodiesel:  http://www.biodiesel.com/biodiesel/benefits/

"I want my MPG!
Many alternative fuels have difficulty gaining acceptance because they do not provide similar performance to their petroleum counterparts. Pure biodiesel and biodiesel blended with petroleum diesel fuel provide very similar horsepower, torque, and fuel mileage compared to petroleum diesel fuel. In its pure form, typical biodiesel will have an energy content 5%-10% lower than typical petroleum diesel. However it should be noted that petroleum diesel fuel energy content can vary as much as 15% from one supplier to the next. The lower energy content of biodiesel translates into slightly reduced performance when biodiesel is used in 100% form, although users typically report little noticeable change in mileage or performance. When blended with petroleum diesel at B20 levels, there is less than 2% change in fuel energy content, with users typically reporting no noticeable change in mileage or economy.

Superior Lubrication for Your Engine
The injection system of many diesel engines relies on the fuel to lubricate its parts. The degree to which fuel provides proper lubrication is its lubricity. Low lubricity petroleum diesel fuel can cause premature failure of injection system components and decreased performance. Biodiesel provides excellent lubricity to the fuel injection system. Recently, with the introduction of low sulfur and ultra low sulfur diesel fuel, many of the compounds which previously provided lubricating properties to petrodiesel fuel have been removed. By blending biodiesel in amounts as little as 5%, the lubricity of ultra low sulfur diesel can be dramatically improved, and the life of an engine’s fuel injection system extended"

4.  From GAS2:  http://gas2.org/2008/04/10/biodiesel-mythbuster-20-twenty-two-biodiesel-myths-dispelled/#myth7

"FACT: Biodiesel contains about 8.5% less energy per gallon than petroleum diesel. For someone using B20, this means about a 1-2% loss in power, torque, and fuel efficiency. To put things into perspective, that’s about a 2 mph difference on the freeway if you were trying to go 55 mph. Millions of miles of onroad tests (aka trucking) have shown that B20 and diesel are practically indistinguishable. Biodiesel has also been used extensively in heavy-machinery, like tractors, loaders, and agricultural equipment, with no noticeable difference.

B100 users may notice a slight drop in fuel mileage based on the small difference in energy content, but torque and power are usually comparable. I’ve seen a 1-3 mpg drop in fuel efficiency running B100. As an FYI, biodiesel has the highest BTU (energy) content of any alternative fuel (falling somewhere between diesel #1 and #2). Energy content of various fuels (per gallon, low value of range):"

  • Regular Diesel Fuel = 128,500 BTUs
  • Gasoline = 125,071 BTUs
  • Biodiesel = 118,296 BTUs
  • Ethanol = 76,000 BTUs
  • In conclusion:  in real world testing there is no noticeable change in power or fuel usage with fuel blends of B5 (5% bio-95% petroleum)  to B20 (20% bio-80% petroleum).  B100 (100% biodiesel did show a decrease in performance and fuel economy due to it's lower BTU value.  The added benefit of increased fuel lubricity over the ULS fuel is a plus for the consumer in the form of possible lower maintenance/repair costs 

  •  
Edited by IBMobile
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@IBMobile. Good info right there. Pretty much what I have seenfor the past aeveral years of running B5 to B20. Maybe a 1 mpg drop on the B20. The truck loves it. I wonder how much easier the fuel gels between the 2? In my 18 years of ownership my fuel has never gelled. Now I dont see some of the temps some you guys see though as a regular diet.

Edited by dripley

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Yup @IBMobile is right on the BTU values... But I've got the last key though...

 

Stock truck with stock ECM tune is going to be deeply retard in timing. With ECM running retarded then the timing is right on mark. Now someone like me that is tuned to petroluem fuel (summer) with lots of added timing is going to take a hit to MPG performance. Now if I keep my current winter tune in the summer (which is retarded per good) then it should work out just fine. 

 

Since my summer tune is about 21 to 22 degrees at 2,000 RPM's then it would be igniting too early. But a retarded tune would fix this and get you fairly close to right. Since Idaho fuel is petroleum based and about 30 to 40 cents cheaper not worth the trouble.

 

Using ASTM testing labs cetane scale. Using Material data scales for diesel fuel information. Take note biodiesel is below the scales ability... 118k BTU's

cetane-btu3.jpg.718cdb12cd43873ccaa0be5d

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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Is this based on B100 or the B5 to 20 I see most available? I have never run B100. Never seen it offered either. Out my way anyway.

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Oh even with my Emergency run to McCall hospital for @Wet Vette and quickly packing up and chasing her to Boise, ID St. Lukes Hospital and driving hard and using full power of my Quadzilla I still pulled 19.03 MPG with my foot in the throttle. But, there again I'm tuned for Petroleum diesel fuel not Biodiesel. 

 

 

Capture+_2019-12-31-08-45-11.png

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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@dripley, finally, here is a photo of the label on the B20 diesel pump at Safeway in Molalla, Oregon. Now I have no idea whether the B20 in Oregon is bio-diesel or bio-mass based diesel, so since I have no idea of what I am getting, I think I will quit using the B20.

 

- John

-20191228_154211.jpg.9712c6b3e3bef5306ac054c25ece9938.jpg

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The whole not knowing drives me crazy. I like using it but sure would like to know what it is I am buying. Everything is a bit vague to say the least. And I have never seen any other pumps labeled Bio Mass only, other than the 2 in Tennessee.

 

I did find this while researching again. FWIW.

http://www.truckandenginemanufacturers.org/file.asp?A=Y&F=Facts+You+Should+Know+About+Biomass-Based+Diesel+Fuels.pdf&N=Facts+You+Should+Know+About+Biomass-Based+Diesel+Fuels.pdf&C=documents

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Wish I didn't blow my jetta up. 30mpg plus sure beats 17-22. I threw 22 in there because a few here get in that ball park. 

 

I put 45k on my truck last year and get fuel every where dont read what pumps are labeled the but dyno cant tell.truck seems to burn it all just fine. Does it even matter? To me no. 

 

I guess it makes for a kinda interesting thread to skim over.

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11 hours ago, Evan said:

Wish I didn't blow my jetta up. 30mpg plus sure beats 17-22. I threw 22 in there because a few here get in that ball park. 

 

I put 45k on my truck last year and get fuel every where dont read what pumps are labeled the but dyno cant tell.truck seems to burn it all just fine. Does it even matter? To me no. 

 

I guess it makes for a kinda interesting thread to skim over.

Never had a jetta but 30 mpg would be cool. The only time I have seen 22 was out of a pump labeled bio mass diesel. The butt dyno could not feel any difference between that and anything else. I put about  30k on mine last year and like you I pretty much buy whatever there is buy from where ever. But if it is a well traveled road and I know the stations that have the best prices that where I stop. My truck will burn it all just fine.

Edited by dripley

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None of my vehicles get very good mileage, but I don't drive very much, so it evens out. When the vehicle in my stable that gets the best mileage is my wife's Hemi Durango, you know you're getting the short end of the mileage stick! I have 3 vehicles; a Hemi Durango, a diesel pickup, and a BMW X5. The one that gets the worst mileage...the BMW, and by a wide margin! LOL

 

But, diesel in Stateline, ID is $2.74/gal, and I don't own a diesel truck for its mileage, so I'm OK with all of that.

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