Cooling the VP44

[015point9]

My fuel system is laying on my carport floor right now.  Before I re-install it I was wondering if there was anything else I might want to upgrade to make it better.  Playing around on internet found a posting about cooling the VP with fans or fuel coolers. Mostly 3 or 4 people posting between 2005-2014.    Seams like good idea in theory.  But if idea is really good I would think there would be kits available or more info about them.  I read somewhere (Blue chip diesel I think) that the most heat the VP is exposed to is the first 20 min after shutting off motor thru heat transfer. 

 

Any ideas about lowering temps in VP?   Anybody have a ideas about cooling your VP?  Is it possible to move your elec from VP to a cooler place, maybe using wires?

 

(if interested...46 pages, basically dozen people recording their operating temps of VP and fuel)

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/135952-Modifying-fuel-system-so-temperature-input-to-VP44-80*-100*-your-inputs

Edited November 19, 2016 by 015point9
spelling

[Mopar1973Man]

Shut down doesn't matter. Like I can lay my laptop in my pickup turned off at 160*F without harm. Now pull it out after soaking in the heat turn it on and it will work just fine. Most all electronic devices can withstand storage temperatures well above the operational temperatures. Ask yourself why does the ECM do just fine bolted to the block without any cooling system at all? As for the VP44 the biggest factor is to have at least 14 PSI of fuel pressure. Just after startup the fuel will pull the VP44 temp down rapidly and back to operational range. Like My VP44 is over 12 years old and over 200k miles and heading to 300k miles. I have summer heat of 117*F like 2 year ago and no ill effects to operation of the VP44. 

 

The other factor is AC noise levels of the alternator. The higher the AC noise levels the more heat is produced by the VP44 PSG. So if you have good clean power from the alternator (10 to 30mV AC) then you should be creating much heat from the VP44 PSG unit. So the fuel system should be able to cool it rather easy. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[KATOOM]

015point9 you're delving into topic questions which have been hashed out for a long looooong time.  There is so much information out there floating around the web regarding all this too.

 

I suggest that if you're truly interested in reading then dig through the internet and see what you can find.  I'm not usually the one to tell people to search on their own either but really because this topic has NO definitive answers one way or the other, but yet still tends to generate many many opinions from those who've been part of all those discussions, its kinda pointless to say anything more than just make sure you deliver your VP a good clean constant supply of fuel at the correct fuel pressures, and use some fuel lubrication additives.

 

That said, having been a voice in this topic over the years I've come to my own conclusions which may or may not be in line with others who have the same level of knowledge and/or experience.....  So I do what I want because its my truck and others do what they want because its their truck.  Maybe someday we can all collaborate again and see if what one person did compared to what someone else did will yield any answers.  Well.....if anyone even cares at that point.

 

Thats not to say we're all doing things vastly different either but just maybe not exactly the same.

[015point9]

Ya, I haven't seen much about fans.  It's interesting how things change over time.  10 years ago I had work done at one of our better shops around Puget sound.  Fuel system was "upgraded" to 3/8 line through out and a low pressure "idiot" light installed.  No reason for a pressure gauge.  That was for people with big horse power   Now common place for 1/2" line and I won't be without a pressure gauge again. 

 

But some things for the better. Cleaning out some of my Moms stuff found my old diary my parents made me keep.  We had three flats when were moving from North Carolina to Spokane in the early 60's. Tires much better today. Atleast I haven't  had a flat tire in a long time.

[dripley]

The roads are a lot better today too. Raleigh NC to Greensboro NC today is about a 1.5 hr  drive. It was about a 3 hour drive in 70's and early 80's. The 60's maybe 4+hr drive. In the 30's when my mom was 12 or so an 8 + hr drive. Not that the tires aren't better, they are. 

 

As far as cooling the VP I would have to agree with Katoom on all of the stuff people have done. I am a believer in the plenty of a fuel method. I think @JAG1might have or had a fan on his.

Edited November 21, 2016 by dripley

[Mopar1973Man]

I've ran into a guy that had fans on his VP44 and managed to create a condition where he could start his engine backwards from the excessive cooling of the fuel, which could over advanced the timing it would literally start the engine and run backwards. Not a good thing for the engine to do. So the whole panic of keeping the PSG cooled is no longer an issue as long as you keep 14-20 PSI of fuel pressure at all time and some sort of fuel lubricant (<520 HFRR). 

 

2 hours ago, dripley said:

I think @JAG1might have or had a fan on his.

Yes he does...

Edited November 21, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[KATOOM]

4 hours ago, 015point9 said:

Ya, I haven't seen much about fans.  It's interesting how things change over time.  10 years ago I had work done at one of our better shops around Puget sound.  Fuel system was "upgraded" to 3/8 line through out and a low pressure "idiot" light installed.  No reason for a pressure gauge.  That was for people with big horse power   Now common place for 1/2" line and I won't be without a pressure gauge again. 

 

But some things for the better. Cleaning out some of my Moms stuff found my old diary my parents made me keep.  We had three flats when were moving from North Carolina to Spokane in the early 60's. Tires much better today. Atleast I haven't  had a flat tire in a long time.

 

Not many but a few people I've ever heard of who use or used any kind of fan set up because it involves a timer which will allow the fan to run for X amount of time needed to keep the PSG temps from rising.  Then you have to account for the voltage the fan will use during that time.

 

But you're right on the money about tires.  How quickly we forget about history.....whereby all too many people think that "today" is as bad as its ever been.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I've ran into a guy that had fans on his VP44 and managed to create a condition where he could start his engine backwards from the excessive cooling of the fuel, which could over advanced the timing it would literally start the engine and run backwards. Not a good thing for the engine to do. So the whole panic of keeping the PSG cooled is no longer an issue as long as you keep 14-20 PSI of fuel pressure at all time and some sort of fuel lubricant (<520 HFRR). 

 

Yes he does...

 

There's a guy who used to be a regular on TDR that still uses a fan.  I believe he used a marine bilge blower connected to ducting too.  I cant say one way or the other regarding the fan idea but to each is own.....

 

That said, I'm not sure if anyone remembers back about 7 years ago when I wrote up a thread about how I thought my engine started backwards two separate times.  CRAZY violent.....   Never understood what happened either, and neither did any one else I talked to about the phenomenon.

[JAG1]

Mine is a bilge blower ducted from the front bumper up to the PSG board. I turn it on running up hills on hot days hauling the heavy camper. I also maintain at least 14 psi fuel pressure.

 

All it does is make me feel better  I suppose. Even when the blower is off the duct still scoops cooler air from the front up to the VP. I don't know if my being able to run 1600 mile road trips twice a year and around town for 4 years on a 0216 error code had anything to do with it. All I know is it ran smooth with the code on there.

 

Glad I still have my old VP core as they have gone up in price.

[dripley]

Hope I will have that same luck. Fired the truck off this am for 150 mile trip to work. Let run a few minutes and jumped in to leave and the CEL was on. Scanned it with the SG and 1689 pops up. Light stayed on all the way to the job. Shut the engine down and restarted a few minutes later and the CEL is off. Scanned it again and the SG says no codes. Used the key trick and there it is. Scanned it one more time and there it was so I cleared and all seems well for now. Truck ran fine all the way. Just something else to look at while home for the holidays.

[JAG1]

I hope its alright Dripley. When I had the 0216 code running around for 4 years like that the CEL never came on.

Go figure

 

 

How can a Cummins be started backwards? Only by rolling backwards with a standard trans, right?

Edited November 21, 2016 by JAG1

[Mopar1973Man]

25 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

How can a Cummins be started backwards?

 

Excessive timing advancement because of cold fuel plus high fuel pressure. Goo combo for starting backwards typically more so with a hot engine and cold fuel temps. 

[JAG1]

So does the exhaust pipe become the intake and the air intake the exhaust?

[Mopar1973Man]

Yes...

[Buzzinhalfdozen]

1 hour ago, JAG1 said:

So does the exhaust pipe become the intake and the air intake the exhaust?

BHEF

Big honkin exhaust filter. 

[JAG1]

Wow that's strange stuff! I was just joking but apparently not. I had no idea.

 

So does the return fuel become the supply then? And all the dirt in the oil filter get sucked into the engine too?

Edited November 22, 2016 by JAG1

[KATOOM]

I still dont really know if the engine actually "started backwards".  And even if it truly did, the entire episode lasted about 5 seconds.....

[Mopar1973Man]

I've seen a few cases here locally where it's happen even with an older 2 1/2 ton military trucks. Where the exhaust burned up the air filter and ran like crap. Also all forward gears are reverse and reverse gear is forward. The gent that did it was wondering why he could not find forward gear.

[JAG1]

How can we make sure it never happens? Sounds very damaging at any rate.

[Mopar1973Man]

Remove your cooler from your VP44. As long as the VP44 allowed to cool by fuel flow it fine.Use fans and coolers you taking the risk of the run backwards problem. Simply the colder the fuel the more risk of starting backwards because the VP44 automatically advances timing for colder fuel so if the fuel.

[KATOOM]

11 hours ago, JAG1 said:

How can we make sure it never happens? Sounds very damaging at any rate.

 

Given the number of people who've ever "thought" their Cummins started backwards, and how long you've been doing what you've been doing JAG.....I dont think its something to even consider or worry about.

 

Personally I dont think its even possible to run an ISB backwards.  Understanding how the VP functions.....there is literally no feasible way for the engine to receive any fuel if the VP rotation was backwards.  In actuality, it would be trying to pull fuel from the cylinders.....if the fueling solenoid even opened at the appropriate times.

 

Rather I think what I experienced was something more like an electronic anomaly causing the VP to try and run the engine in some sort of 3 cylinder mode or random odd firing diagnostic mode.  Not sure.....but "backwards", no.