Quadzilla Adrenaline Economy and MPG

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

2 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

2,800 -> 4,400 -> 2,600 roughly. So the entire trip down is downhill following a river. 3 grades to climb. Then the whole trip back home is all up hill. Home is 2,800 feet elevation so I climb out the hole to get to New Meadows, ID then drop downhill following Weiser River the whole way. The only 3 grades (Fort hall Grade, Mesa Grade, and Midvale Grade).

My god your both fast to respond lol, Excuse any errors guys, new to your forum setup. Must say I like it better then cummins forum. 

 

This info is for both Joe Dirt (I love the pic haha) and Mopar man Ok so your not as high as I expected... first let me grab some info, I assume your a manual truck with a 3.54 ratio based on the info you've provided on rpm @ speed. Do you run a fass style fuel system or some custom collaboration for VP health? Besides the obvious quad, exhaust and injector what else outside the factory realm is done to the truck? That's for both of you, I'm curious on some things before I open my metaphorical mouth...From personal builds of customer trucks as well as my own I've rarely been under 20mpg except for race day or towing...

[Mopar1973Man]

All my setup... Too long for signature...

https://mopar1973man.com/garage/vehicle/101-2002-dodge-ram-2500/?show=mods

[Me78569]

My old truck was 7 x .012 injectors set at 330-350 pop depending on the set I was testing.  he351ve turbo with my programming 4" exhaust.   pureflow pump with filters, then the typical 450 hp trans build,   235/85/16 tires on 16" steelies with 3.55's.  

 

at 55-65 mph if I stuck timing at 1-20.5* of timing I would easily do 22-24 mpg.  if I stuck to 55 and really tried I could hit that 25-26 range assuming it wasn't windy.  the 330 pop injectors did really well on mpg.  

oh yea, and dents lots of them.  

 

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by Me78569

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, Me78569 said:

at 55-65 mph if I stuck timing at 1-20.5* of timing I would easily do 22-24 mpg.  if I stuck to 55 and really tried I could hit that 25-26 range assuming it wasn't windy.  the 330 pop injectors did really well on mpg.

 

Still struggling to reach that 21 yet... 

 

[Me78569]

vp man vp,  they are freaks

[Dieselfuture]

22 hours ago, Me78569 said:

oh yea, and dents lots of them

Belive it or not my little Honda I drive a lot usually does 35 on hwy and after decent hail damage it's up to 37 lol.

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

On 8/13/2018 at 10:35 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

All my setup... Too long for signature...

https://mopar1973man.com/garage/vehicle/101-2002-dodge-ram-2500/?show=mods

 

Ah ok very cool with the garage and photos. Do you still run the ISSPRO gauges with the quadzilla? Just double data or did you remove them? You took great pics, nice and clear. I like the setup, I had a NV4500 I swapped into my 12v. Didn't like it due to the clutch, it was fun to drive by man that clutch... and it was slow shifting so my track times sucked...but anyways ok so mopar man I got your setup down, ME how come you used 7x12's? Trying to keep the pulse width short or were you trying to attempt multiple injection cycles? (I know it's not that big of an injector but it can happen starting around 7x12 and 5x16 on 12v trucks depending on pump build. Just seems like you'd have more atomization issues but at 330 bar I'm sure it wasn't bad. At least you didn't have SAC style nozzles. 

 

Ok so the quadzilla, does it use the factory or it's own overlay map for IAT timing compensation? I've changed my IAT number manually via resistors and don't see any output change except on stock so idk if quadzilla locks the IAT offset map. If so that can impact the economy issues that mopar man was having as I think you stated a little while ago. A point I wanted to bring up though was VCO vs SAC I'm sure everyone knows the characteristics  of the burn pattern and what it does, when you had your injector set that was sticking were they SAC style? I've always had terrible luck with SAC style, there just way too dirty burning no matter what pop pressure, haze drives me nuts even with customer trucks....VCO seems to be much more street friendly. 

 

As for size size something I didn't see talked about was operational pulse width in relation to nozzle count/size. There is a point in which say a 7x10 has a short pulse to release the pressurized fuel with good atomization. A 7x12 for example may not have as clean of a spray really BUT the operational pulse width would be shorter since we are working with fixed injection pressures. Anyways so idk how into emissions tech you guys are but someone brought up the stock timing falling in variation to calculated load, yes this is, mostly emissions related tuning. That aside a larger amount of fuel with proper pressure, swirl and oxygen content can actually yield a faster burn rate not slower as some people think. That said partly why stock trucks besides emissions drop timing instead of a rise to assist in burning the excess fuel is to control the cylinder pressure rise. You see it more in a gas application where air restriction on volumetric efficacy is a factor but with our engines a proper clean spray in the bowl can speed up the cylinder pressure ramp rate, I think partly why mopar man noticed gains dropping timing is he's using an injector with a decently long pulse width (small size injector) but with that fine spray causing cylinder pressure to rise faster then ME but maintain the longer burn rate of the longer pulse width. Does that make sense to you guys? It's hard to explain with words some times haha

 

so this brings me to my next point off relation, mopar man you climb small grades rising above the cruise timing threshold so you drop out of cruise time. Insead of focusing on your cruise time advance why not dial back your load timing reduction? When it hops out of cruise time and back to the base map if you can dial in the base map timing better you could in therory bring peak cylinder pressures back during the incline above the cruise threshold and thus gain the economy back. I don't think your cursing timing is the problem the base map timing is via the reduction of fuel load. Like I run my timing like this for economy, works damn good actually...

 

fuel load:0

low boost reduction:0 (1-2when towing for a little more response when needed)

cruise advance: 3 @40% load cutoff

 

1500:16.5-17

2000: 21

2500: 24

3000: 26.5

max: 27

 

essentually I get about 20* at cruise, stock injectors auto trans and a 3.54 gear so I'm about 1500rpm at 55 roughly but when I hit an incline and fall out of cruise advance I only drop back to that 16.5-17 range all the way down to the floor till it unlocks the converter or down shifts, I don't have that drop off to say 14 and loose cylinder pressure. This is all taking the pulse width, flame rate, and finding perfect timing peak cylinder pressure out of context so yes I'm not right on where I need to be but during that incline holding my cylinder pressure up higher gets me up and over the hill easier and funny enough my EGT hardly climbs because of it.

 

ill leave it at that, hopefully y'all will understand what I'm getting at

[Me78569]

I used 7 x .012's because I was developing the v2 tuning and wanted to know how far I could push injectors with a small turbo and high elevation.  AKA trying to create the worse case situtation and still have it work.  that way I would know if the project was possible to get done with good results. 

there is no IAT related map in the Quad once you are up to temp, much like the ecm, IAT is largely ignored ( unless temps drop below 80*f)     There is the code in the quad to do it, but we never got a good train of thought in terms of how much offset to use for what drop or rise in IAT temp.

injection pressures are not fixed in the vp world.  Pop is set, but you will see a step rampup of nozzle pressure up to 26,000 psi or something like that  ( dont remember anymore) every stroke.    the 7 x .012's ran the best out of all the injectors I have run actually.  they had the best mpg, even at stock pop.  however I learned a lot about what my truck liked for timing when I had the 7 x .012's I never got that chance with the 7 x .009's or stock.  Using short duration and big injector opened up a lot of the duration map to play with though.   


as for good mpg, it really all came down to hitting that 19-21* mark at cruise state.  

 

 

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

8 hours ago, Me78569 said:

I used 7 x .012's because I was developing the v2 tuning and wanted to know how far I could push injectors with a small turbo and high elevation.  AKA trying to create the worse case situtation and still have it work.  that way I would know if the project was possible to get done with good results. 

there is no IAT related map in the Quad once you are up to temp, much like the ecm, IAT is largely ignored ( unless temps drop below 80*f)     There is the code in the quad to do it, but we never got a good train of thought in terms of how much offset to use for what drop or rise in IAT temp.

injection pressures are not fixed in the vp world.  Pop is set, but you will see a step rampup of nozzle pressure up to 26,000 psi or something like that  ( dont remember anymore) every stroke.    the 7 x .012's ran the best out of all the injectors I have run actually.  they had the best mpg, even at stock pop.  however I learned a lot about what my truck liked for timing when I had the 7 x .012's I never got that chance with the 7 x .009's or stock.  Using short duration and big injector opened up a lot of the duration map to play with though.   


as for good mpg, it really all came down to hitting that 19-21* mark at cruise state.  

 

 

Ah I see, so you helped the development of the maps then? Eventually an IAT map would be useful, it's not a big deal though since truely the IAT location sucks anyways it just gets terribly heat soaked. 

 

So so I gotta ask the question then, is the quad an intercept box meaning it catches the Can Bus messages from the ecm, then interprets, and modify that message and send it to the VP computer? I'm so used to the way common rail systems work, I never got too heavy into VP44 trucks till recently...

Just gonna leave this here, this was my first big experience with the V2 software. Customers truck I built head to tail. It was trashed mechanically, I mean TRASH every single wearable item top to bottom was worn. After full suspension rebuild and everything I layer into the engine. Goal was a killer street truck you could drive every day. Thanks to V2 it made the truck! Engine setup was: 8x11VCO I'm not sure of manufacture they were second hand, head studs, 103# VS, pushrods (owner choice), titanium keeper and lock set, T4 manifold I ported, ported exhaust side of the head, S366 box 66/74/.91 T4 the owner found used for $200, Iquad V2 with my tune, Hot Rod VP, Fass 150 with a custom draw straw type setup, one of my heavy street transmissions with 1800 stall converter (chose before the 66 was purchased so it should have had a 2000-2200), poly suspension bushings front to back, back lowered 2" total with lower and upper overload springs removed. Then a bunch of little things here and there but it ripped pretty good, eventually once dialed it started slipping the trans which takes about 850hp at the crank when that occurs. I pushed that 66 hard thanks to V2, got 22-23 MPG highway, on its race tune 1400* wide open EGT at 62psi of boost and 80 drive pressure. In the video it's running 4wd high, it doesn't look like it but when I let off the throttle the speedo had just kissed 60mph no lockup. I never got a good video of the speedo on a pull since the trans started slipping. The kid in the video frame was the owner who hadn't seen the truck till that day. Totally blew his mind. Realistically I think it was about 720-750 at the tire or so, I've done setups similar on 12v engines that pulled 780 with that turbo combination. We got 1 good pass at the track, on slicks it ran 11.14@127 right when the Density Altitude peaked that night. Conditions couldn't have been more perfect. Sadly it never made the dyno...

 

 

[Me78569]

I wrote pretty much all of the V2 update.  There is only 1 map that the quadzilla uses, which is wiretap.   I spent a good bit of time working through what an IAT map would look like, but the resulting alterations I did not find useful and the general though from people was that there was enough tuning variables as it was.  

 

The canbus fueling is all a push or pull of the oem command.    The oem maps are really nice and really smooth, no need to recreate them.   

It is a piggy back box, the ecm looks at sensor data and spits out a fueling command, then the quad grabs it and changes based on boost and the setting in the tune.    For Timing the quad waits until ECT is above 120*f then it ignores the oem timing map and builds 4 different 2d maps based on various sensor inputs.  It then looks at an overall state and overlays the 2d maps to create a sudo 3 or 4 d map if that makes sense.  

The issue with creating a few 3d timing maps is trying to have the end user alter that many data items wouldn't work.  The OEM timing maps leave a lot to be desired as well so we couldnt really use them and still have people "tune".  That's not what the market wanted.    This method is not as exact as the udc pro type tune, but it is much easier to build and more forgiving for a novice.    The resulting tune is still very good.   There is also an easy tune method built into the Quadzilla timing function.  If you leave all timing inputs set at 0* then your sliders will be an OEM + what you want in the slider.    I dont like the resulting timing curve much, but some guys use it.

the 2nd gen world is correct for a piggy back system, the CR world is not.   The ecm in the 2nd gen truck is built in a very restricted manner that you have to play within the limits of the communication protocols in place.  That is why the piggy back is useful.




That 66 runs REALLY clean for what it is.  Good work.  Share the tune?  I know a lot of guys with 66's would love to have theirs run like that.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Me78569

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

I hate to say it but that tune file is gone now....I built that truck 2 years ago now, ive swapped 2 phones since then due to shop damage IE laying things on it and crushing the phone haha if I come across another setup or my tow file for my dually ill upload that. My dually for example is a stock truck, fass, trans, exhaust....that's it. I run it can only all the time and its smoke free and nicely responsive. Of course that's no guarantee for the next truck running it since each responds different.

 

But your short explanation on how it works makes total sense. I really considered UDC for the truck but if I want to make a change I gotta pull out the lap top and flash and flash and flash for 5 some minutes without the truck running and that sucks...specially in august and I have major health problems so heat and I don't get along at all! Speaking of UDC do you happen to have a stock ECM calibration file I could look at some how? Ive got the Smarty UDC program on my laptop, id like to see the stock timing and fuel curves myself. Reason I got the quadzilla is I made a request to DAP since im a dealer and got a Iquad at cost for my personal truck and they were also nice enough to send me a demo control pod too. I make changes and logs via Iquad but if im towing or doing something work focused and need to watch temps but ive got phone calls or something I plug the control pod in and use that for a while. Works quite well and I can show the benefits of both interfaces.

 

So if I have some input as to the Iquad App or specifically the maps who do I talk to? you or quadzilla themselves? From what ive seen it seems your on the programming team?

 

Noticed today your Sig says you got a 2018 now, congrats there nice trucks once the emissions is gone and the auto trans models are built, personally I like the older trucks better. id love a common rail but im still a starter company and I pour a lot of the profits back into the shop to better serve the customer and myself so ill stay with the older tech lol

 

A point I want to make also on the economy gains mopar man was looking for, on autos stall speed makes a big change of course, his being a 5 speed 3.54 gear that puts him at 2100-2200RPM at about 70mph on a 31" tire he has listed. Good gear setup with the manuals. Auto trucks seem to like 4.10 better, 3.54 if you don't really tow anything and just want max economy. Anyways hes got a good gear set BUT one thing I think that may help is the 60/60/12 hybrid turbo he is running isn't helping much in the economy relm, its a great towing charger but a standard box HX40 60/64/18 does really really good with the 5 speed 3.54 gear trucks, I had one on my 12v in its old chassis, 24mpg on that sucker. the HX35W I got 20. cruise boost was the same but EGT itself was 480-500 on the HX40 and about 600-620 on the HX35W. im thinking at the cruise rpm of the 5 speed hes hitting the part throttle drive pressure issues where yes its making good boost and feeding the engine but that air also needs to exit and bringing the exhaust volume up too high to where the 12cm housing isn't flowing threw well enough since the WG is closed. another option besides the HX40 would be the 16 or even cheap 18 non gated housing for the HX35. ive run those before and it helps a lot. you can feel on a A-B test back to back that your not in the throttle as much and over a few tanks of fuel your suddenly going further per tank. the 18cm housings are like $68 that's a hard deal to beat specially if the fuel eco gains of 1-2 occur on how far mopar man has to drive...

The suggestions to Iquad I wanna make is:

 

1. the iphone app in settings says the tire size is 95 inches tall for the smallest setting, ummm im not a combine so I think that's a tad off haha

 

2. can we please get a idle and 1000 rpm timing base map. I wanna make (and it would be popular) a drive threw tune. I write them on CR trucks its mostly idle timing is super low like on TDC or sometimes after in some cases to make the clatter silent. Biggest and most dramatic example of this is the 7.3 Powerchokes, they use that type of tune and suddenly there silent. I feel this setting would hugely benefit us VP guys. Idk about anyone here but I hardly ever turn my truck off. I go into stores, it stays running specially in the winter and super hot days when the dog is with me. It would be really cool to park off in the corner and make it very quiet. Yes the exhaust will haze but nothing really able to be done with that...

 

Its not silent silent but here is an example, its timing and they either remove or add an injection event to silence the clatter like the new CR trucks do with multiple injection cycles. We cant really do that with VP but it would be nice to have a quiet engine idle for some situations, the exhaust will be louder but that's life...buy a muffler then

 

3. Apple App has no import tune button. Not sure why, I tune on the ipad so its easier to see data and drag sliders then copy it to the phone since its always with me. Had to do it manually...kinda sucks but not that big of a deal.

 

4. Everytime the app is minimized on apple the app doesn't idle in the background so then it re-initializes, kind of annoying but not the end of the world.

 

5. A manual Initialize button in custom tuning would be good, after setting changes most people don't realize if you click your tune file then it uploads to the Adrenaline, for simplicity can we get a upload button to update changes.

 

6. A big big help would be to trick 3-cyl High Idle. I really want this feature on demand! Also for normal high idle can we get an adjustment of high idle speed? Or even just target idle in general. Id like to be able to pull high idle to 1800rpm for AC diagnostics, 3 cylinder for cold days I need to get moving fast I can speed up the warming process. Is any of this possible?

 

If your not the guy to ask about this maybe you can point me or forward it to someone. These features would be killer to have.

[Me78569]

UDC pro is missing a number of timing tables for a VP44 file.  I have ecm files you can open in winols and see the tables.

 

I dunno where my winols def files are.

353339304J.bin

353339304J.xml

ecu_defs.xml

ecu_defs1.xml

 

 

as for app changes talk to them.  Again there is only 1 map in the v2 tuning.  

Edited August 15, 2018 by Me78569

[Quadzilla Power]

1 hour ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

1. the iphone app in settings says the tire size is 95 inches tall for the smallest setting, ummm im not a combine so I think that's a tad off haha

That is actually rolling length of the tire, not the tire height. So circumference, not diameter. Less accurate method is to take the tire height and multiply it by 3.14 to get the circumference. Most accurate is to measure it yourself with the truck rolling. Stock is set to 95.7". 

 

1 hour ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

2. can we please get a idle and 1000 rpm timing base map. I wanna make (and it would be popular) a drive threw tune.

This is actually pretty interesting. I've never actually heard a "whisper mode" tune that actually worked so this is nice to hear in the video. Every time we have tried to mess with stuff in the idle section it has ended up badly for us. I can look at this again when my trucks are put back together. 

 

1 hour ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

3. Apple App has no import tune button.

Because Apple app doesn't let us write to the file system directly, nor does it give us a good way to view the files in the file system. Unfortunately the only way to load tunes is through the email to myself then "open in the app" method. 

 

1 hour ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

4. Everytime the app is minimized on apple the app doesn't idle in the background so then it re-initializes, kind of annoying but not the end of the world.

Kind of an iOS thing. I honestly don't know why it doesn't work, its supposed to, but it doesn't I guess. 

 

1 hour ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

5. A manual Initialize button in custom tuning would be good, after setting changes most people don't realize if you click your tune file then it uploads to the Adrenaline, for simplicity can we get a upload button to update changes.

So, rather than clicking on the name of the tune to apply it, you would like a button in the custom tuning menu that will load the file to the Adrenaline when clicked? That is interesting. I will have to look at this in the future. 

 

1 hour ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

6. A big big help would be to trick 3-cyl High Idle. I really want this feature on demand! Also for normal high idle can we get an adjustment of high idle speed? Or even just target idle in general. Id like to be able to pull high idle to 1800rpm for AC diagnostics, 3 cylinder for cold days I need to get moving fast I can speed up the warming process. Is any of this possible?

3 cylinder high idle would require the ECM to be programmed for 3 cylinder high idle then we would have to "fool" the IAT sensor to make the truck think its really cold. That would require a complete revision of the Adrenaline system. I'm not sure that its really feasible at this point. Maybe we can make a extension module on our screen when we finally come out with it that does something like this. 

I too agree that it would be nice to set the idle target. This change isn't as involved as the others and is something that we can conceivable do. I will have to look into that. 

[Youngblood24v]

@Quadzilla Power Have any idea on how long until your screen for the quad is going to be available? That is something that I’ve been looking forward too for a long time! I also agree with having the ability to change the high idle  rpm setting 

[Quadzilla Power]

Believe me. We have been waiting not so patiently for the screen as well. We really want to get it out there and right now it is just taking too dang long. 

 

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

On 8/24/2018 at 11:43 AM, Quadzilla Power said:

Believe me. We have been waiting not so patiently for the screen as well. We really want to get it out there and right now it is just taking too dang long. 

 

The delay kinda sucks I agree but good things come to those who wait lol when you do launch the screen id like to get one as soon as I can. I use my iQuad and control pod both for demo pieces for sales so I'd love to get one threw DAP when available.

 

as for the previous post,

 

1. I didn't even think of tire circumference at all. That makes perfect sense!

 

2. Yeah this would be a killer addition to the soft ware if you'd be able to pull it off. I never turn my truck off so instead of drive threws I just go inside and let the truck idle but if it was quiet all this sudden I could potentially use the drive threw or atleast be quieter (engine clatter not exhaust which would get louder of course) when idle in parking lots where a lot of people are.

 

3. Apple is such a pain in the *** some times? Maybe I'll swap in a android in the truck full time then. 

 

5. I know a second button is kind of redundant since you can just click the file again but I've had newbies make small adjustments after I showed them how to and they make the changes and just back out to gauges but don't apply the settings and they think something is wrong so I get a phone call. Maybe more end user friendly to have an 'apply' on there.

 

6. I know that smarty S03 can enable this feature, it's too bad that it wasn't programmed to every truck. I may have to do the S03 rental thing to enable it. Guess I'll have to figure that out. Oddly my tow rig doesn't even have factory high idle so the quadzilla is wonderful for that. The adjustable target speed would be killer so I can do AC diagnostics at high rpm or even just for effective cool downs in desert or stopped traffic. 

 

I updated (iOS) my V2 "quadzilla only" profile today within the app to version 3.9 today. Went for a small drive to do a little data log. I made some small adjustments and noticed the "wire tap" table is now gone. Was that intended or a glitch? I really really liked having that, I hope you didn't remove it... my top wire tap tune (stock truck essentially) was super clean because of it and very smooth I'd like to have that back.

On 8/15/2018 at 3:18 PM, Me78569 said:

UDC pro is missing a number of timing tables for a VP44 file.  I have ecm files you can open in winols and see the tables.

 

I dunno where my winols def files are.

353339304J.bin

353339304J.xml

ecu_defs.xml

ecu_defs1.xml

 

 

as for app changes talk to them.  Again there is only 1 map in the v2 tuning.  

Thanks I'll pull it up on the laptop.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Tittle Diesel Performance

[Me78569]

Don't use the quadzilla only profile.   It is a test profile to see what happens with file updates.

 

The wiretap % sensor was a beta test thing to know when wiretap was doing what, but it is not standard release because too many people don't understand that lvl 5 out of 10 would only give you %30 wiretap.  Too many phone calls about "why don't I get full wiretap"?  The underlaying map for wiretap and code is unchanged.

 

 

Idle state changes are very hard.  The ecm is doing a lot of management at idle and it gets pissy if it notices the engine isn't doing what it is telling it to.  The high idle stuff took a TON of testing to find the right fueling to add without triggering run away protection.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Me78569

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

I didn't realize it was so difficult with the VP. I know it's a very complex pump and I'd assume the software would be too.

 

well the quadzilla only profile would explain why I was having some small hiccups then lol I'm really gonna miss the wire tap graph... I really liked that. Full power tunes were super clean, I had the can max out then the wire tap took over so it was seemless. Guess I should have left that version on the phone then... oh well.

 

so from some of your guides I understand there is a "anti smoke" feature, that essentially if your curve is too aggressive (on a stock truck I'm referencing) that there is a limiter to keep it clean though you maxed all the settings like an idiot?

 

i know this is stupid but has anyone figured out a idle lope with the V2. There is some kid on the internet that had it happen with V1. I'd assume it's possible in some manner. 

 

Im waiting for mopar man to log in. Must be having a busy few weeks...I'd like a update on his fuel eco logs. I think I'm gonna start tracking mine as well with old fashion hand checking at the pump

[Me78569]

unless you had a special flash from me then you didn't have the backend for the wiretap stuff anyways.  There is no difference in what is going on under the hood with wiretap.  

 

 

no anti smoke feature.  You can command as much fuel as you like.  

 

 

Lope tune, set wiretap tps max to 0.   It will run like trash.

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, Me78569 said:

 It will run like trash.

 

I always wondered why people want a lope tune or a smoke tune neither one produces a good tune and makes the truck run really crappy. Why?