Quadzilla Adrenaline Economy and MPG

[Mopar1973Man]

Updated my first post with an Excel sheet of my tunes currently loaded. 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

I know @Me78569 you mentioned something about that odd flip-flopping of timing at low loads. I figured it out you're pulling the timing too far retarded and the ECM is fighting to advance the timing. I watch a normal timing on Level ZERO for awhile at low load the timing is supposed to advance and under heavy engine loads, the timing is supposed to retard. Which some of the programmings is backward like "Fuel load Timing" that is backward too. With the high engine load should give the least amount of timing advancement aiding spooling and then as load reduces then the timing start advancing again. The cruise timing has the same weird bug too where the flip-flop starts because the Quadzilla will pull down to 11-13* and then the ECM is pushing for 19-21 at loads below 15% and then the flip-flop starts. Go to level 0 and the ECM does like its suppose to kick the timing high at low loads and loads increase the timing retards. 

 

I know this a bit old of a pic but gave some clues to what is wrong... Just think of changing the MAP axis to Engine Load. Because boost and engine load tend to follow each other to a certain amount except cruise where boost could be much higher because of engine RPMs. Like for example, I can have 10-12 PSI of boost and 0-10% engine load. Your current design is based on boost which is kicking out the cruise state or holding too long at lower speeds. Where in my example the engine load would keep it in cruise state but now set a limit load wise it would kick out like its suppose too. This why the cruise state should be controlled more by engine load and not boost. 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

@Mopar1973Man  

 

That image isn't actually a timing map.  look at jdonoghues notes for 2008 with those tables. its actually a fueling table.  It also doesn't match what OEM timing does. OEM timing is NEVER high at high map / low engine speed.  it only ever goes high at 2400 + rpm and if load is very low.

 

 

So I know you hate getting Data logs, but I REALLY need them to look at whats going on when you give examples.  The way the Quad calculates timing is VERY complex, so I need to know all the sensor inputs at that point in time to truly understand what is going on.

 

So lets look at how the timing work in the Quad.

 

The only time OEM timing is considered now is sub 120* / warmup and below 1500 rpm. During cruise timing OEM timing not considered, There is a bug on the screen display that OEM timing will show vs the actual timing, but this only happens when going from throttle state to no throttle, but RPMS are still up.  Still thinking through that one.  However the timing going to the VP44 is correct, the screen just isn't showing the quad timing. 

 

RPM Timing

you set a high limit for an RPM range,  then the low limit for that range is taken from the high limit from RPM range before.  timing is always stretched between the high limit and low limit, then pulled down if load is low.  I know you think this is backwards, but the Quad uses a completely different table to pull timing for spooling the turbo.  Fuel load timing is purely for performance state / once boost is up so don't think of it as a way to pull timing to spool the turbo, that's not it's purpose.

 

IE: 

1000: OEM

1500: 15 *

2000: 19*

2500: 23*

3000: 25*

max: 26*

 

So between 1000 - 1500 rpm 

Low limit = OEM ***********

high Limit 15*

 

1500-2000 rpm

Low Limit 15*

High Limit: 19*

 

2000-2500 rpm

Low: 19*

High: 23*

 

Etc etc

 

 

******So OEM timing might actually be high or low before 1500 rpm.  You might see that OEM timing drops to 11* at high load below 1500 rpm,  it might also come up to 16 - 17* on light throttle that is why you see that timing down low doing something odd.  so pre 1500 rpm you might see a timing amount of 17* even if you 1500 setting is 15*, but as rpm approach 1500 rpm timing will also approach 15*, form above or below 15* depending on what OEM wants.

 

Keep in mind, in terms of timing, the ecm won't fight the Quad like canbus fuel will.  The ecm set a desired timing and sends the message out, end of story.  The ECM will not try and retard more or less than the table tells it to because we alter timing.  I have done a lot of data logging showing Quad timing vs oem timing and oem timing is always the same in similar situtations regardless of what I do on the Quad.  

 

 

Cruise timing no longer fights OEM timing,  if Cruise timing is on then you get the desired amount of timing without input from OEM. The bug you are seeing is the screen bug that I don't know how to solve due to your late truck and their electronic CC being a PITA.  It is VERY difficult, programmically, to know when your trucks are using CC or when you are actually off the throttle, but revs are high, like engine braking.

 

 

So lets talk about High load , low boost timing.  IE before the turbo has spooled.

 

OEM timing will hold timing down around 11* even as boost comes up beyond 20 psi, Everything I have read / input for other guys say that timing only needs to be low when load is high BUT boost is low.  They have also said that the reason why timing stays low is for emissions reasons.  You will clearly get more power by bringing up timing once boost comes up.  Lots of reports of much better butt dyno feel.

 

So what the Quad does.

It has a full timing map for Low boost / high throttle.  Has nothing to do with RPM, just tps and boost.  So if boost is low and you go high throttle it will pull timing, just like oem, based on your timing reduction timing setting. It will allow you to pull timing down to that 11*, or less, if boost is low and tps is high.  however as soon as boost comes up beyond 10 psi that timing retard is no longer used.  You will see this in a data log.  This is what we want, only pull timing when boost is low tps is high, once boost comes up them timing should come up.  

 

IE:

Say 1600 rpm

RPM low limit: 16*

Fuel load timing: 2*

Timing reduction: 3*

Boost = 2:

TPS = going from %15 to %70 TPS

 

so the quad base timing will start off around 14.25* as you are at light load in the 16* range.  The Quad is always looking at the Low boost high tps timing table, but it always returns 0 unless throttle is high while boost is low.

 

So as soon as you spike throttle to %70, the timing reduction map will return ~%70 of that 3* and the quad will take that 14.25* we started with and minus %70 of 3* = 2.1* or 12.15* of total timing.  Just like you want and just like OEM is wanting.

 

It is impossible to control cruise state using Quadzilla load.  It is WAY to dynamic. Even a %5 spike in TPS will cause Load to spike by at least %20.  Boost is a much more stable way to turn off cruise timing.  Keep in mind that early trucks DO NOT REPORT actual engine load across canbus. So the Quad cannot use it.  

 

 

 

I would love to hear more, but I will need data logs to show a specific issue. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Well if you want data logs you going to have to correct that menu button so I can reach the menu on the fly being I can't just stop on a interstate to do logging nor can I stop in the middle of a two lane road to do logging. I'm still travelling roads with no pullouts so till that menu button is fixed I can't do much being that I might have to drive 15-30 minutes away to a pull out or off ramp by then the little tiny 5 minute log is long gone that I wanted.

 

Till then you'll have to consider what I'm say... I have no other choice... They still look like this right now. Just better weather, high berms. 

 

 

 

Other than that I give you lots of deceleration logs to pullouts which are meaningless...

48 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

ssible to control cruise state using Quadzilla load.  It is WAY to dynamic. Even a %5 spike in TPS will cause Load to spike by at least %20.  Boost is a much more stable way to turn off cruise timing.

 

 

 

I was thinking of the controlling of timing during cruise state. Not cancel per say. As load goes up the timing should be retarding to allow the engine to build boost. So cruise is set say 65 MPH hit a small hill load rises timing should fall. Right now the timing either holds or possibly advances. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[Dieselfuture]

That menu button is weird, on my s5 I got what you got @Mopar1973Man tiny icon at top left corner that is hard to access at times. And when I downloaded apk to my s6 that I now use in a truck I got this circle with 3 dots that I can move anywhere on my screen, and it allows me to go to menu.

@Quadzilla Power on samsung s6 I have this circle with 3 dots and it can be moved anywhere on the screen, and on s5 I didn't get that, was it a glitch? Much easier to access menu than tiny one at top left corner. Was there a change in the apk.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Dieselfuture

[Me78569]

I understand what your saying, but I can't fix the app side stuff, that is %100 outside of my control.  Gotta understand I have no dog in that fight, you will have to talk with @Quadzilla Power about it directly, I simply will not remember as I don't have that issue on any of my devices.

 

 

Cruise timing is %100 controlled by RPM, no reference to boost, no reference on load / tps.   Cruise state timing will never increase timing if RPM is stable.  If timing spikes then it is not related to cruise state.   Cruise state should only kick in if truly at cruise, I don't consider climbing a hill cruise state.  I can't make that choice for everyone, which is why the boost limit was put in place.   Any spike in power need should kick out of cruise state timing so that the users psi limit can either lock out cruise state or lock it in when fueling stablizes.  

 

Keep in mind if you hit a hill your CC increases TPS / fueling, fuel will spike, cruise needs to kick out, timing will drop if boost is below 8psi.  the higher tps goes the more timing will drop.

 

I would wager that you are seeing cruise timing disable and that is why your timing increases.  at 65 mph / 1900 revs.\ I would guess your base timing is what 18*?   Maybe you need to dial back your 2k timing a few * to get what you want?   

 

 

Also again I can't use actual engine load as a tuning variable since it is not reported on early trucks, so keep that in mind when you think through stuff.  

[Mopar1973Man]

Here is a captured log I had to find a spot to get it to happen while I had a chance to stop and access the log features.

 

VERY DANGEROUS to attempt at highway speeds. Way too many screens and looking down to capture. 

 

 

Now if you look I'm at low engine load it should be staying hi in the timing but drops several times. Low boost as you can see. 

[Me78569]

What's load's scale at here?  I double you are cruising along with load sub 10% are you?  

 

In the graph I see that when load stablizes timing goes into cruise state.  then at ~240 load increases and timing drops as expected. 

 

What speed and rev are you at on that graph?  tps? 

[Mopar1973Man]

 

21 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

What's load's scale at here?

 

As you see it there hovering at about 5% to 10%.

 

21 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

I double you are cruising along with load sub 10% are you?  

 

There is several canyon stretches where there is just enough downgrade. Speed isn't the issue, the engine load and timing. I'm capture reproducing at just about any speed as long as I can get the engine load low. I've watched this flip flop happen many times on shallow downhill runs with light throttle. More or less throttle was held at 10% through most of this. 

 

Again I'd capture on the road in real conditions just too dangerous to attempt driving a winding canyon road, that is icy and slick and messing with a cellphone with a bad menu icon and tempting to capture data quickly before 5 minutes runs out. Till this is resolved I really can't data log some of the weird things I see. If the app had a capture button pre-configured for your export I would just reach down and tap it when then thing occur. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

Speed is very much an issue as it is a trigger point for cruise timing to engage and disengage.  The full data log is needed for me to see what varaible is causing cruise to kick out and back in.  

 

There are 5 "are we at cruise" checks that need to all come back as yes before cruise will enable.   

 

This flip flop you are seeing is just cruise timing being on then cruise timing being off as a result of one of the 5 above checks not being yes.  Based on the 3 sensors in your log I don't see anything wrong with how it is working.

 

Cruise state needs to error on the side of caution otherwise you end up with the issue you had a few weeks ago where cruise state would not release.  Remember before cruise state would pull down to match OEM timing, but it wouldn't kick out and it wouldn't allow for a wider spread of timing based on RPM.

 

 

all I can say is contact Quad about the app issue and ensure it is on their list. 

[Mopar1973Man]

The only way I can capture logs safely is to recreate the same results in a non-highway road where I can stop and capture the data. I can do screenshots of the Quadzilla easy because I've got it rigged on the phone for screen capture and it saves directly to the phone. As for data logging being the 5 minute limit and the menu function it too dangerous to do at highway speeds. I've already sent an email to Quadzilla about the previous ideas but no idea if it's in a list, considered, or even read?

 

Attempted another run to capture in flight. Ended up dropping the phone and focusing on driving because there is no where to safely pull off the road to capture soon enough not to miss the 5 minute window. It would be a little different if I lived in a city where I could take a back road and play on. Here the only road is the highway all other roads are city streets (15-25 MPH typical speed limit).

[crf450ish]

3 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

 

I cannot get these gauges on my iPhone 6. What do I do to get them? I don't have a Quad yet, just tinkering with the iQuad app....seems I am missing something. 

[Me78569]

@Mopar1973Man

 

Call them.  emails get lost in the vast onslot of stuff that comes in, just like posting them here.

 

Do you have the unfiltered datalog for the graph you posted?  I need to know the other sensor inputs from that log to know what caused it to kick out of cruise timing.  

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, crf450ish said:

I cannot get these gauges on my iPhone 6. What do I do to get them? I don't have a Quad yet, just tinkering with the iQuad app....seems I am missing something. 

I got android samsung s6, not sure about apple stuff,  sorry. 

Drove the truck today with basically @Mopar1973Man economy tune, and seems to run pretty good. Good response no smoke and pulled good. I have not played with defuel stuff yet. 

[Mopar1973Man]

The only defuel setting I use is the EGT. The boost I don't use at all. Warm up mode I set for 165*F.  High idle I don't use either. 

3 hours ago, crf450ish said:

I cannot get these gauges on my iPhone 6. What do I do to get them? I don't have a Quad yet, just tinkering with the iQuad app....seems I am missing something. 

 

 

Take your finger drag the screen to the left or right.

[Me78569]

@Mopar1973Man test the EGT defuel on an open stretch of road.   I honestly struggle to hit 1200*f so it is hard to for me test it.  However it is the EXACT same code as the boost defuel which I can test and that works pretty good from what I can tell.

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

12 hours ago, Me78569 said:

I honestly struggle to hit 1200*f so it is hard to for me test it.

 

So do I... I struggle hard to reach even 1,100*F EGT now. My typical EGT range is 500-700*F so very rare to look up and see higher temps. The only way I can test it is to hitch up and tow the RV. Be awhile till that thawed out enough to towing the RV still buried in the ice and snow. 

[TFaoro]

I can test this one. Doesn't take much for me to get over 1600

[Me78569]

  please be nice to me hahahha

[Quadzilla Power]

19 hours ago, crf450ish said:

I cannot get these gauges on my iPhone 6. What do I do to get them? I don't have a Quad yet, just tinkering with the iQuad app....seems I am missing something. 

If all you have is the circle in the middle, you need to swipe up from the bottom of the screen to get access to the gauge palette. Press and hold to select a gauge, then drag it up to the posiiton you want it in.

If you want to change the layout, swipe your finger from right to left to access the other layouts. 

20 hours ago, Me78569 said:

Speed is very much an issue as it is a trigger point for cruise timing to engage and disengage.  The full data log is needed for me to see what varaible is causing cruise to kick out and back in.  

 

There are 5 "are we at cruise" checks that need to all come back as yes before cruise will enable.   

 

This flip flop you are seeing is just cruise timing being on then cruise timing being off as a result of one of the 5 above checks not being yes.  Based on the 3 sensors in your log I don't see anything wrong with how it is working.

 

Cruise state needs to error on the side of caution otherwise you end up with the issue you had a few weeks ago where cruise state would not release.  Remember before cruise state would pull down to match OEM timing, but it wouldn't kick out and it wouldn't allow for a wider spread of timing based on RPM.

 

 

all I can say is contact Quad about the app issue and ensure it is on their list. 

Regarding the app update to have longer tunes. The limit now should be 100,000 lines instead of 1,000 lines. Basically, you should be able to log for about 3.5 hours now instead of 4 minutes or so.