VP44 PSG5 limitations read/write

[rogerash0]

Copy, Im on it. We had an inch or two of snow maybe 5-6 days ago. We talked about my location previously when I mentioned stopping by Rocky Mountain Cummins, which is a good shop in my town. They've helped me a lot for free with ECM swap, full field test on the alternator, by passing relays, printing out wiring diagrams, etc. You have one by the same name in your area.

Edited October 8, 2017 by rogerash0

[Mopar1973Man]

24 minutes ago, rogerash0 said:

We talked about my location previously when I mentioned stopping by Rocky Mountain Cummins, which is a good shop in my town.

 

When you say that I think Boise Idaho... So now I know and understand you are in Montana... 

https://www.google.com/search?q=rocky+mountain+cummins+boise+idaho

[rogerash0]

Yep, been here 5 1/2 years, and the AF is making me move permanently to Langley AFB, VA very soon. I will hit the road 1 Nov. Just need to finish packing the house. I have a 28' enclosed trailer I purchased after selling the camper I had. So I'm going to the coast where its 0 ft elevation above sea level; we are practically on the water. It's going to be quite a change. The truck felt tons better driving around when it was 32*F outside, so I am excited to see what the lower elevation feels like.

Edited October 8, 2017 by rogerash0

[rogerash0]

Here's what I got. 

40*F air temp, 8 Oct 2017, Truck never fired up for the day, Resistance test (good for nothing? I forgot we wanted vdc at this point)

Fluke set to ohms, neg on grid heater ground by intake elbow, positive on passenger batt ground: Readout was all zeros prior to key on, grid heater on. Key on, grid heater on yielded: 1848 ohms, dropped linearly to 1648 ohms, then grid heater turned off. With grid off, key on, I measure 0.11-0.8ohms which fell over the course of a roughly a minute. Final resting ohm readout is 0.8ohms. Passenger side resting showed 0.11-0.8ohms, with final resting resistance of 0.3ohms.

 

Same test but in vdc, truck never started for the day:

Passenger side batt: Reading zero vdc with everything off. Key on, grid heater on, 0.202vdc to 0.187vdc with a slow even linear drop. When grid turns off, vdc drops off to zero.

Drivers side batt: After letting the grid sit a minmute or two, still havnt started the truck: 0.208vdc drops down slowly, evenly, linearly to 0.193vdc, then drops to zero as grids turn off. 

 

Batteries showing 12.90vdc after firing the grid heater four times during conducted tests above.

 

I dont know if I did much right or that can conclude anything.

[Mopar1973Man]

Can't measure OHMs with a live lead. 

 

You have to do the voltage drop test and measure how much voltage is lost under heavy load like starting or grid heater. Starting is the biggest ranging somewhere around 400-700 Amp draw this would yet the heaviest load the cables would have to cover. Being grid heaters either are 95 Amps single element or 190 for both elements. Starting load test is the best. 

[rogerash0]

I'm really a special case hut I don't see what measuring vdc across a ground and neg cable does whilst starting or grid heater. Even measuring it across a POS to neg terminal, what's it being compared to? I suspect you guys may suspect my cables are going bad.

 

After installing the bd noise filter and driving for 45 mins, the truck drives the same. After pulling over, taking the alternater mounting top plate off,pulling the black ground wire with brn stripe down it, in front of the alt all that I could, over the radiator recovery tank and over the air filter -- rather than over the alt and under the air intake -- the truck now uses third gear. I had done this before, used alu foil before , and done many things before, but it's not until now that the truck is suddenly using third gear all the way up til 55mph under 50-60% throttle. It can still hit 4th gear @ 30mph crawling in town in traffic, but overall it's no longer stack shifting like it always has. All I did was move that ground cable, I did it on the road after driving 45 mins to be sure I could tell if it had any bearing effect at all .

 

Also, the apps is retiring 13-14% throttle with no foot on the gas pedal. At one point up until I restarted the truck it was at 23-24% apps with the truck resting in park. Is it worth clocking the apps sensor and letting out the stop screw to fix this? I don't know if they the IVS still applies without a timbo? I assume so but the truck appears to be driving night and day better now.

 

https://m.imgur.com/a/oeKGt

Edited October 8, 2017 by rogerash0

[Mopar1973Man]

35 minutes ago, rogerash0 said:

I don't see what measuring vdc across a ground and neg cable does whilst starting or grid heater.

 

Measures amount of voltage drop from point to point. So between the two probes is the amount of voltage lost. So anything over 0.2 Volts is time to replace said cable. You can do this for any cable or wire just needs to be up to max amp load while measuring. 

 

 

35 minutes ago, rogerash0 said:

After installing the bd noise filter and driving for 45 mins, the truck drives the same. After pulling over, taking the alternater mounting top plate off,pulling the black ground wire with brn stripe down it, in front of the alt all that I could, over the radiator recovery tank and over the air filter -- rather than over the alt and under the air intake -- the truck now uses third gear. I had done this before, used alu foil before , and done many things before, but it's not until now that the truck is suddenly using third gear all the way up til 55mph under 50-60% throttle. It can still hit 4th gear @ 30mph crawling in town in traffic, but overall it's no longer stack shifting like it always has. All I did was move that ground cable

 

Noise issues. This is created by the alternator again. Like in my article you need to leave the ground in the stock position and remove all filters and added ground leads. Like my truck when the alternator goes out the cruise control goes nuts instead of the torque converter or shift issues since I'm a manual. I highly suggest you put all wiring back to stock and just replace the alternator and have yours and the new alternator tested before you leave the store.

 

35 minutes ago, rogerash0 said:

Also, the apps is retiring 13-14% throttle with no foot on the gas pedal. At one point up until I restarted the truck it was at 23-24% apps with the truck resting in park. Is it worth clocking the apps sensor and letting out the stop screw to fix this? I don't know if they the IVS still applies without a timbo? I assume so but the truck appears to be driving night and day better now.

 

Don't. All your going to is make a train wreck out of the APPS sensor. If you want to just rule it all out and remove that problem then replace with a Timbo's APPS there is no voltage adjustment and no setting of the APPS being its fully mechanical. Everyone that goes messing with the stock APPS sensor makes a huge mess of it being all the articles out there are WRONG about voltage adjustments. I've got a correct article here.

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[rogerash0]

My truck came with the noise filter and tin foil over the ground wire, then I started reading everything on this site, prescribed to your methology and took off the noise filter and tin foil, set to put all wiring back to normal. This was some years ago. Started going thru all sensors and relays, theyre all new now, and all for good reason. Latest alt on the truck now tested good 3 times over at Autozone. It also tested good at Napa. It was a 'brand new' reman from Napa maybe 6 months ago. The brand new, brand new 136amp Bosch crapped the bed and wasnt charging the truck, so this is a something reman 116amp on it now. It's all they had in stock that day, and I was facing limp mode with the trans and all types of crap around that time, so I took what they had to get me going agian.

 

I tested 0.056vac or so off the back of the alternator at idle. Altho the brand new Bosch 136a that lasted 9 months or a year did test bad when I took it into Napa, it took a new ASD shutdown relay with the new alternator to get the truck charging again. Oddly enough I tested the original relay per the FSM and it ohm'd out correctly per the manual, but still a new one did the trick and had me making 13.7-14.3v again. I never thought the ASD relay would be to blame for a lack of charging power, so it took me awhile to figure that one out.

 

I dont have writing on the sticker of my apps sensor, it got rubbed off when I cleaned it with a rag that had mild carb cleaner on it. I may go back to autozone and have the pull one off the shelf and see what it says. I was reading the board heavily last night and I think someone said the highside limit is 3.6v. I was getting 3.8v if my memory is correct. The wells instructions dont talk of a high side limit, so I didnt think much of it. Cant say Im gonna go buy a Timbo when Ive already spent piles of money, on a new apps sensor already. I'll go clock the sensor and see what it does or doesnt do for me.

 

Update:

Getting the truck to display 0% apps on my edge tuner required unscrewing the set screw until the voltage was 0.347v. The clocking of the sensor on the back affected the high range, which I set to 3.6v. It was at 3.8v (driving great). Wells menions nothing in their documentation about the high range, only clocking it to set the low range. I noticed no matter how I clocked it, clocking it wouldnt raise the voltage sufficiently to the 0.5-0.6v their documentation calls for. So I set the high side to 3.6, low side was was 0.55v, drove it, it drove about the same. Set it to 0.347v for 0% apps sigal and it drove about the same yet again. Cant say anything changed. I didnt reset the ECM calibration by leaving the negative battery cables off though. I can give that a try, and report back if it makes a difference. I suspect it wont, but who knows. Got home and even with the voltage below spec at 0% throttle, a code was not thrown. Only drove 5-10 minutes though.

Edited October 8, 2017 by rogerash0

[Mopar1973Man]

3 hours ago, rogerash0 said:

Getting the truck to display 0% apps on my edge tuner required unscrewing the set screw until the voltage was 0.347v. The clocking of the sensor on the back affected the high range, which I set to 3.6v. It was at 3.8v (driving great). Wells menions nothing in their documentation about the high range, only clocking it to set the low range. I noticed no matter how I clocked it, clocking it wouldnt raise the voltage sufficiently to the 0.5-0.6v their documentation calls for. So I set the high side to 3.6, low side was was 0.55v, drove it, it drove about the same. Set it to 0.347v for 0% apps sigal and it drove about the same yet again. Cant say anything changed. I didnt reset the ECM calibration by leaving the negative battery cables off though. I can give that a try, and report back if it makes a difference. I suspect it wont, but who knows. Got home and even with the voltage below spec at 0% throttle, a code was not thrown. Only drove 5-10 minutes though.

 

Crazy... Wells APPS sensors. If it wasn't for the electronics you won't have this issue. 

 

APPS relearn might help a bunch being it detect IVS switches and the voltage range from idle to WOT.

[pepsi71ocean]

On 10/7/2017 at 11:48 PM, rogerash0 said:

Funny, my drivers side ground was loose enough on the battery to wiggle around and pull off, so I did tighten that up so that it was tight tight. I wonder if that really was the cause for a lot of the fix. It was firm enough to stay on whilst driving for the last several months. There was a point there where I was taking them off so frequently I left them firmly on there enough to stay on, but able to be pulled off.

 

I dont quite follow how your getting a voltage (drop) testing from bat ground to grid heater ground, esp with the truck off. Tomorrow morning my grid heater will cycle on, we are calling for rain and snow @ 36*F by 8am says Accuweather.com. 

 

Reading your post twice or thrice, it seems like yours saying I should see a vDC load on the ground cables from the batt ground to grid heater ground, when the grid heaters are cycling on. So lets say I see that reading, then they turn off, what is my comparative voltage (delta) to measure the loss or difference?

 

When your running the truck it will have a static loss. But if you dump a load on it (like the grid heaters, the starter etc, you will measure the loss between the two points. it should ready less then .02v @Mopar1973Man is this correct I can't remember.

 

Quote

 

To follow the article posted, I need a second person to start the truck as I use the fluke. I dont have that right now. The wifey will be back by the end of Feb.

 

Edit; Also I think I was seeing 1-2 shift and 2-3 shift around 1600 or 1800rpms under normal acceleration. I cant recall which it was. That's probably around 15-25% throttle, perhaps settle in the middle.

 

That shifting seems about correct to me as well. I bumped the starter manually with a wire  i built with a tab on one end and a switch on it, that hooks to the battery positive. 

 

On 10/8/2017 at 12:21 AM, rogerash0 said:

Yep, been here 5 1/2 years, and the AF is making me move permanently to Langley AFB, VA very soon. I will hit the road 1 Nov. Just need to finish packing the house. I have a 28' enclosed trailer I purchased after selling the camper I had. So I'm going to the coast where its 0 ft elevation above sea level; we are practically on the water. It's going to be quite a change. The truck felt tons better driving around when it was 32*F outside, so I am excited to see what the lower elevation feels like.

Welcome to my neck of the woods. VA drivers can't drive worth a darn in the rain!

[jlbayes]

On 10/6/2017 at 10:54 PM, pepsi71ocean said:

I've found that test to be about useless, because you can easily achieve the same by running around in locked gear and see at what point the truck really takes off. When I did this test I came up with about 1,500/1,600 rpm as where the truck likes to accelerate the most.

 

You aren't using stall of the converter at that point. It is not even remotely close to the same as what I asked him to do.

[Mopar1973Man]

9 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:

it should ready less then .02v @Mopar1973Man is this correct I can't remember.

 

0.2 volts or less...

[CTcummins24V]

On 10/6/2017 at 11:32 PM, pepsi71ocean said:

 

That is what I'm trying to say. I totally would agree with the TC theory if the gearing was correct. But I feel that there is no reason for it to be in 3rd or 4th gear, even at speeds that I believe that 2nd gear is not only warranted but I think suggested. 

 

 

If you do and they find a solution please let me know.

 

 

That is very odd, what is your fuel pipe diameter? is your pump grounded correctly to the battery and the relay is powered up? I see a steady 17-18psi, with a 2psi drop on my system, and I'm running 3/8"s everywhere except between the FASS and the Fuel tank. That is 1/2" and I have almost no pressure problems.

 

 

I had a similar issue with my truck running around at 1,100rpms locked up, i was told it was the springs in the TC that were bouncing due to the torque reversals in the crankshaft. I found that upping the timing on my smarty eliminated that metallic noise, on the current smarty setting.

 

 

My truck will idle up as well. I can hit 15 mph if it let it roll down the road. But at an idle in Drive she will even shift into 2nd. and I'll hit 15mph. 

 

That metallic sound in lockup is the spring dampers in the converter? I had a low stall with that terrible sound in 3rd lockup at low rpms. Now I have a stock stall and Its much better. Still fight it sometimes though

[rogerash0]

Any way you can put into words what changing converters did for ya, from low stall to stock stall? In my mind I cant hardly imagine the difference in the seat of the pants feel.

[notlimah]

Stall is just reffering to when the torque converter will start working its magic. Stock stall is an aftermarket TC with a stall identical to stock (obviously) which is around 22-2400rpms (generally speaking and you'll hear different people say different rpms). So from there you can see where slightly lower, ultra low, higher then stock play in.

 

You pair these TC stalls with setup, more specifically your turbo(s). Big single or the right compounds, probably looking at above stock/high stall. Smaller-ish single and you can get away with slightly lower to stock stall. The main goal is to let the TC spin freely enough to get your turbo to spoil prior to it engaging. 

 

Hope that helps.

[CTcummins24V]

10 hours ago, rogerash0 said:

Any way you can put into words what changing converters did for ya, from low stall to stock stall? In my mind I cant hardly imagine the difference in the seat of the pants feel.

 

http://goerend.com/converter-theory/

Low stall=fluid coupling in lower rpms= your truck starts moving at idle without any throttle because fluid coupling is happening transferring power. I used to hold my foot hard on the brakes when stopped or I could push through a red light or stop sign. 

 

Stock stall=need some throttle and rpms for fluid coupling to happen to transfer power. In my experience, stock stall hangs gears longer and you need more rpms to get the truck moving off the line. For our trucks, this generates more heat in the TC/tranny but I like it better around town and driving empty.

 

I hated low stall and driving empty. No engine load from weight and instant power transfer at low rpms made the truck a dog and smokey around town, hard to light my super b and stay smoke free. Loaded up, it was a different story, truck drove great. There's valve body and cable stuff involved too but a stock stall converter is more street/empty friendly, for modified trucks.

 

 

 

[rogerash0]

Thanks, sounds like I've always had a low stall. When I bought the truck originally we would drive 30-35mph down the main road if the engine was warm, with zero throttle. Thats if I got it going up to 25mph, but it didnt take much throttle input to do that in the first place. I say that confidently because 30 is the speed limit on base, and I would meet or exceed that from a dead stop at the ID check at the main gate every day. Now my truck does about 15-20 with no throttle input if the engine is warm.

 

Goerend talked about the low stall being more efficient and so on.

[CTcummins24V]

One thing Phil Taylor(DPC) told me for his converter, he can make a 17 blade “stock stall” converter with a more efficient stator, I think that’s whats in my truck now. It ends up being a slightly lower than stock stall or just more efficient, I cant remember. I think low stall is something like a 15 blade which is noticably lower than stock. Depends on the builder. 

[notlimah]

I have a 15 blade torque converter from Goerend and they consider it slightly lower then stock, I wanna say they even mention 2-400rpm lower.

[rogerash0]

FP told me I quote "yours is slowly lower than stock" . Phil told me mine needs restalled since I have compounds now, but wasn't specific as to what he would do... Gave me a weird vibe.