Ground Reference VP44,ECM,PCM,PDC plus TC lock/unlock

[dripley]

5 hours ago, OmahaGen2 said:

OK, I thought I had this, but I have only to connections that go to my alternator (see pic) and the other end of this alternator lead goes into the large loom & then breaks out by the VP44 and up to the negative side of the PDC.      I also have a power lead going from the drivers side battery to the PDC.

I also have a ground going from the drivers battery to the fender & one from the drivers side to the frame.  (I had already changed out the cables with a kit several months back)

 

Never had a problem except for T/C lock unlock started happening..unhooked the power from the PDC 140 amp to test.......it eliminated the T/C problem.......changed the alternator out, put on a additional ground from the PCM to passenger battery.  Worked for a while...and now I am opened up the loom seperated out the grounds & I am not sure about what to do with the PDC negative. I would think big awg ground, but why isn't my truck fried?   again no other problems or codes..

And yes I triple checked where it runs to..

Both of those wires are +, the black and the red. IIRC the black is the charge wire from the alternator and goes thru the 140 amp to the drivers battery to charge the batteries. This also powers the pdc. If they were + and - the fuse eould always be blown. With the mod just bring a wire down to the pdc from the drivers battery.

6 hours ago, JAG1 said:

Some doing this Mod are skipping by not adding the 3 additional battery parallel cables that W-T has called for. If you skip this important part you are asking for trouble in the future. You need to do either of 3 options..... 1) complete the battery to battery paralleling cables.....2) move the battery temperature sensor over to the passenger battery..... or 3) use a longer heavier B+ charge wire over to the drivers battery where the temperature sensor already exists from the factory. This very important or you could have a real fire hazard.

 

W-T is very pissed some of you are skipping this important safety feature of this modification on your trucks.

I always thought all the paralle wiring was due to the additional electrical load that WT's truck has with his radios and such. I did run an additional ground wire between the 2 battaries and my system seems to be happier than it ever has.

How is WT doing anyway? Wish he would post back to let us know how he is fairing after the fire,

[JAG1]

Dripley, I haven't spoke with him for probably 5 or 6 mos. He was struggling with getting contractors to rebuild his shop. His home is okay since it only got about 15,000 in damages, it's livable, but also what to do with property that all around and everywhere else is ugly and burned out. He is struggling whether or not to rebuild or take what he can get and build somewhere else. Last I heard he was getting gravel to restart the shop since the foundation is damaged. It's difficult not knowing what to do, but getting gravel only because you have to wait so long for it. The area has gone from beautiful to completely devastated.

Edited June 15, 2020 by JAG1

[Alexio Auditore]

On 4/21/2018 at 9:39 AM, W-T said:

I would encourage anyone applying this general modification to at least provide, one additional ground strap between the Auxiliary and Main Battery. Do not assume the two 0 gage ground leads to the engine block to provide absolute "ground reference" between the two storage batteries, even, if you remain with the "stock factory" Alternator. The direct 4 gage B+ charge line supplies the Auxiliary Battery first and is in parallel with the Main Battery...the engine block is ground however: for ABSOLUTE ground reference between the two storage cells you should strap an additional ground. The temperature sensor at the Main Battery tray relies on "equalization" between the two cells for sinusoidal charge rates

 

He mentioned doing an additional ground strap at the very least. I upgraded to the 180 amp, and did a 1/0 strap ground to ground. At the very least, this isn't a hard thing to do. It was maybe 30 bucks for all I needed, cable, ends, heat shrink, loom. I dont know if this is enough for a higher amp alternator, but at least its a start.  And if I recall correctly, wasn't @W-T's alternator like a 280amp? A lot more power there for sure.

 

How difficult would it be running the battery temp sensor from driver to auxilary?

 

@JAG1, id be interested in seeing if your ac noise changes or stays the same running a (bigger) wire back to the drivers side battery.

[JAG1]

I would be interested in that also.

 

W-T's original write up had us adding two grounding cables and one more positive cable battery to battery for better paralleling. I hadn't heard what you are saying about adding one ground cable bat. to bat. I am only concerned with what may happen to others, as in my case I had a shorted cell in the passenger battery with the charge lead and no temperature sensing. It cooked the alternator. You can see where the wire got so hot the shrink tubing started to melt, but the 150 amp fuse did not fail. 

 

I will do the test next Saturday by running the charge lead to the drivers battery and test the AC noise before and after. I have the terminals and cables for this and the added ground. I will give before and after results for you guys. Thank you for the help to simplify it Alexio.

Edited June 15, 2020 by JAG1

[Mopar1973Man]

Not required for stock setups. 

 

I'm completed the W-T ground wire mod. I'm still very stable at 11 to 13mv AC. The extra cable isn't going to make a difference if you don't run the extra double to the starter. W-T did a lot of extras because of noise issues on ham radio. Plus his ham radio drew quite a bit of current. This is why the double was used for his purpose. For us that DO NOT have a ham radio and just driving a truck you can still get away with the stock cables which I'm still running my stock battery cables. Now if you have a winch on the front bumper now I would do the dual cables battery to battery because of the draw to the winch. 

[JAG1]

Michael, I spoke with W-T about what could have prevented the serious overcharging event that cooked my alternator. He insists that it's because the charge lead is too far from the battery temp sensor, i.e. temp sensor is on the drivers battery while the charge lead is on the passenger battery. So what gives boss?  Don't mean to stir the pot even tho us natives have you in the stew.

[Mopar1973Man]

28 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

He insists that it's because the charge lead is too far from the battery temp sensor, i.e. temp sensor is on the drivers battery while the charge lead is on the passenger battery.

 

Not true. If the bridge cable on the radiator is under 0.2 Volts under load which mine is less than this last I check. This is the voltage drop between batteries at full load of the starter (700 amps or or more). Now the rest of the system operates on far less current flow including the grid heaters. (190 Amps). The battery temperature will be the same if the batteries are both charging at the same rate as long and the bridge cable between is less than 0.2 volts during starter operation. 

Now like on my landlords truck 2000 Dodge 3500 hes got really crappy cables and measured a drop of 10 volts between so the passenger battery was way up in the high 15 volts and the driver side was barely 11.2 volts. Grid heater would suck the driver side battery out and the passenger side was 15 volts still with no drop. This is a bad bridge cable between the two battery. Now your battery temperatures would be skewed. He's needing that cable replaced. I clean the ends and got it down to about 0.5 volts between the batteries. Cable is rotten internally. 

[beren]

Just wanted to chime in and remind everyone to not solder these connections. There's multiple reasons. It stiffens the cable at the joint because the solder wicks up the wire. The vibrations can break the joint between metals which causes resistance and higher heat/voltage drop. The high temps of a bad connection can evaporate the lead solder and cause an even worse connection. A cheap 12-20T crimper can be gotten fairly cheap from ebay and as long as you don't blow the seals it'll last and you can lend it to others ;-) I bought the heavy duty tinned brass lugs from fastenel or zoro and used the glue-lined heat shrink to seal it up.

 

My stock cables were corroded pretty far up, I cut back the insulation, cleaned them with vinegar and baking soda and then used the heat shrink as new insulation. It's been going well the last few years but I should check the voltage drop under load to see how it's doing. Switching to AGM batteries are also a great idea since they don't vent gas at the terminals and your corrosion vanishes.

 

I bought Noco lead-free zinc military style terminals to go from the battery studs to eye terminals on the cables. So much better!

[Mopar1973Man]

I tend to prefer soldering. The reason for soldering is the terminal is welded on and provides a solid connection that can never fail. Where a crimp can corroded between the wire and the crimp and later on fail. With solder filling the voids and welding the wire to the crimp there is no way for the crimp to slide off or corrode between. The solder seals the wire from wicking in any corrosive materials like battery acid as well. Like my solar / hydro system has 2/0 cables all soldered between each. 25 years later the cables are still sealed and no corrosive has enter under the jack of the cable. 

 

Also these are lead acid batteries (1,000 pounds) which never venting corrosive vapors if charged correctly. 

 

 

 

 

Then an update with the truck... All solder connections. All solid and clean yet. 

 

Passenger side with alternator charge lead on the positive post. Also take notice I've got ZERO corrosion on the battery and not venting anything. These are 8 years old. This is the second year of the W-T ground wire mod. 

 

Driver side battery. Terminals still in excellent condition. No corrosion or venting of acids. ECM and VP44 gorund still clean and tight.

 

Here is the ground point. I will admit this ground cable could wick in acids easy being the solder doesn't make the jacket of the wire. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[Alexio Auditore]

Hey @JAG1, were you able to run your charge wire back to the drivers side battery? Curious if you saw a change in AC readings.

[dripley]

I soldered all my connections also. Replaced all the cables at the same time. I just bought 2/0 cable and soldered all the lugs.It s been just over 2 years since and all holding up well. Did all of this while doing WT's ground mod. I used military style terminals to connect everything to and used no coating on the connections. To this day everything is clean and no corrosion. 

[beren]

It's a bad idea, and it will fail before a properly crimped connection. Everyone from NASA to random people on the internet say don't do it. https://www.google.com/search?q=solder+vs+crimp+battery+cables If you use a hydraulic crimper and do a correct crimp, then try to solder it, the copper will be so tight it the solder can't get in. Add the marine/glued heat shrink and nothing can get in.

 

A couple good pictures and explanation of metal fatigue and such is here: https://millennialdiyer.com/articles/motorcycles/electrical-repair-crimp-or-solder/

 

https://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2 books/links/sections/201 General Requirements.html  <-- good picture explaining things

 

and for the actual specs https://nepp.nasa.gov/files/27631/NSTD87394A.pdf

https://hackaday.com/2016/11/03/specifications-you-should-read-the-nasa-workmanship-standards/

That article is how I discovered all this.

The stories in the comments are a fun read too :-)

[dripley]

I found a lot pros and cons on both ways when l did mine. Found the same with using welding cable vs battery cable too. I did use marine grade adhesive shrink wrap on the connections and had everything to solder them with on hand so thats the route I went. I gues time will tell.

[JAG1]

3 hours ago, Alexio Auditore said:

Hey @JAG1, were you able to run your charge wire back to the drivers side battery? Curious if you saw a change in AC readings.

I forgot about doing that after my recent conversation with W-T. I'm doing the battery to battery paralleling cables as he says. So far I have added only a negative to negative cable like IBMobile has done but that's only half right as W-T explains it. I am using #4 marine braided cable that is tin coated. W-T likes the quality of that stuff, but is expensive.

Edited July 18, 2020 by JAG1

[Mopar1973Man]

Extra ground strap between batteries is not going to make it better. That just points out the master grounds to the block are weak.

[JAG1]

   MoparMan, what about the battery temperature sensor? How else are we to make that effective for the battery now taking the brunt of alternator charge?  

Edited July 18, 2020 by JAG1

[dripley]

30 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

   MoparMan, what about the battery temperature sensor? How else are we to make that effective for the battery now taking the brunt of alternator charge?  

I did add a 4 gauge wire from negative to negative much later. I was not experiencing anything bad before doing it. Everything was working just fine. And absolutely no difference after adding it. The charging system was working better after the mod and before adding the extra ground and still does after adding it. I dont think I gained anything but it did not hurt anything that I know of.

[JAG1]

1 hour ago, dripley said:

I did add a 4 gauge wire from negative to negative much later. I was not experiencing anything bad before doing it. Everything was working just fine. And absolutely no difference after adding it. The charging system was working better after the mod and before adding the extra ground and still does after adding it. I dont think I gained anything but it did not hurt anything that I know of.

I think it is critical when you have a chance of smokin the alternator with a bad cell. It can happen with old marginal batteries as I had, but because it started just fine, no slow cranking, I tried staying with the old batteries even tho I knew one was weak from load testing each one seperatly. It was a big mistake running with old batteries.

Edited July 18, 2020 by JAG1

[dripley]

1 hour ago, JAG1 said:

I think it is critical when you have a chance of smokin the alternator with a bad cell. It can happen with old marginal batteries as I had, but because it started just fine, no slow cranking, I tried staying with the old batteries even tho I knew one was weak from load testing each one seperatly. It was a big mistake running with old batteries.

My batteries were maybe 6 months old. Prior to the mod they they would get a touch moist on top, he old ones any way. I never really paid it much attention until l noticed the new ones were staying dry and still are. Just seems as pre mod they were overcharging a bit and post mod not. No electrical gremlins since either. If extra negative is helping, l don't know. But l think l will leave it, can't hurt anything.

[Mopar1973Man]

On 6/14/2020 at 11:46 AM, JAG1 said:

It's required Mike  because if the passenger battery develops a short with age and no battery temperature sensing to limit charging, being the temp sensor is on the other battery you could cook things up real good. So you have those three options I mentioned above that W-T and I talked about.

 

ABSOLUTELY NOT REQUIRED!

 

As for the bad battery even with the extra ground it will not change that fact. The block is a bigger gauge cable that the bridge cable you want to install. Then the other fact all battery system only use 1 battery temp sensor PERIOD this is the same for all vehicles with dual batteries. Adding a extra ground between battery will not change that fact. Again the block is a bigger gauge cable that any bridge cable you can install. Even my house power system has only 1 battery temp sensor with EIGHT batteries any of the other 7 batteries could go bad and start cooking with heat and the sensor will not see it. Even though I've got 2/0 cables between all EIGHT batteries still will not stop this fact. Adding a 2/0 bridge cable for just a mere 3mV drop is absolutely NOT REQUIRED.

 

The battery temp sensor is the yellow lead its attached to the battery facing toward the bottom of the picture.

 

Simple fact is measure the voltage drop between batteries if there is more than 0.2 drop between your ground cables are failing. Adding a ground will NOT FIX THIS. You need to replace the exist ground not mask it with a another cable between batteries. Same problem with people adding grounds try to mask the AC noise problems DO NOT DO IT. 

 

So now I went out fired up the truck and measured the voltage drop as the grid heater were running I measured exactly 3mV drop from either batter to the block. Failing point is 0.200 VOLTS or higher this was 0.003 volts or 3mV DC Drop between battery to the block. The fun part is these are 18 year old stock battery cables and still near perfect condition with only losing 3mV drop to the block.

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Mopar1973Man