Jump to content

We have detected that you are blocking our advertisers. We pay our operational bills with advertising and donations. Please add Mopar1973Man.Com to your whitelist of sites on your adblocker. If you register as a member and submit a donation to the website, the advertising amount is reduced the more you donate. 

 

whitelist.png

 

This will allow you to keep you adblocker turned on for other sites and allow to display advertising here. Thank you, for understanding and whitelisting Mopar1973Man.Com. This will allow us to continue providing quality Cummins diesel information to everyone for free!

  • Welcome Guest To Mopar1973Man.Com

    We are a Dodge Ram Cummins Turbo Diesel forum. We are very friendly and helpful group of Dodge Ram Cummins owners. We will try to keep your truck running the best we can and provide information for diagnostics, repairs and even guide you on the best replacement parts to use. 

     

    Registration is free. Registering on the site will provide access to many more things like...
     

    • Contribute to the Forum being able to ask questions and get support for your Dodge Ram Cummins.
    • Contribute to Article Database adding your ideas and suggestions.
    • Classified Ads posted by the members. Post up your used parts and vehicles.
    • Member Garage where you can proudly display your vehicles and modifications that you have done to them.
    • Download files, documents, and Quadzilla Adrenaline tunes for your truck.
    • 911 Support Network. We've got a group of members will to aid you if your truck breaks down on the road.
    • Reduced Advertisements displayed to you.

W-T

Ground Reference VP44,ECM,PCM,PDC plus TC lock/unlock

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

W-T are those your photos of your work and your truck in the post ?

 

What year trucks does this include with that kind of wiring and wiring harness ground wire mess issues?

 

Im not exactly sure what all you did. But it sounds like you pulled the ground wires out of the harness below the vp44. Cut them short , and screwed them to the front engine housing and also ran a wire from that screw to the driver side neg battery terminal.

Then removed the remainder of the cut off ground wires going to the pass bat. neg terminal that were passing over the alternator

 

Sound right?

 

 

.

 

,

Edited by GSP7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, thank you for doing this research, and contributing to a solution to this plague affecting these trucks.

If I may make a suggestion, once you have your final wiring done, maybe you post a step-by-step procedure of everything you did. Because as it is now, its a bit confusing to read with your research and fix are written together. Again just a suggestion, and thank you for your work. Yours and Mike's work may actually lead to a permanent solution to this problem.

As a side note, have you looked into the fix some people do, by running a new ground from the alternator to the battery or body? Could that be coupled with your re-grounding?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, GSP7 said:

W-T are those your photos of your work and your truck in the post ?

 

What year trucks does this include with that kind of wiring and wiring harness ground wire mess issues?

 

Im not exactly sure what all you did. But it sounds like you pulled the ground wires out of the harness below the vp44. Cut them short , and screwed them to the front engine housing and also ran a wire from that screw to the driver side neg battery terminal.

Then removed the remainder of the cut off ground wires going to the pass bat. neg terminal that were passing over the alternator

 

Sound right?

 

 

.

 

,

 

@GSP7yes...the photos are of my truck and it is a 2001 auto. The "mess" of the "grounding" is strictly what Daimler/Chrysler produced during production. I was merely bringing this to attention because it doesn't follow protocol of standards in regard to DC ground. 

 

The examples depicted are what should be done to correct the oversight. I apologize for any confusion but, this thread ties in with the "High Amp alternator" thread which does add to the continuity of the electronic aspects. 

 

You're correct, the #8 gage Blk/Tan is a critical ground and the routing Daimler/Chrysler selected is contrary to any standards in Electronic Engineering basics. 

 

The result of correcting this will lead to the integrity of DC ground reference for the VP and all associated electronic management devices.

 

The benefits eliminate the proclivity of AC ripple causing error within several related electronic devices which results in unwanted operation. It also enhances the appearance of the engine bay.  

 

 

   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 82dodge331 said:

Wow, thank you for doing this research, and contributing to a solution to this plague affecting these trucks.

If I may make a suggestion, once you have your final wiring done, maybe you post a step-by-step procedure of everything you did. Because as it is now, its a bit confusing to read with your research and fix are written together. Again just a suggestion, and thank you for your work. Yours and Mike's work may actually lead to a permanent solution to this problem.

As a side note, have you looked into the fix some people do, by running a new ground from the alternator to the battery or body? Could that be coupled with your re-grounding?

 

This aspect has been fully documented in the "High Amp alternator" thread along with "what" to do for correction. 

 

It was Mike's @Mopar1973Man work that called my attention to this long running saga and I only wish to contribute to his outstanding achievement. @Timbo endorses Mike's conclusion and the discussions on countless websites reveal an over-all acknowledgement that the "fix" is fully understandable. 

 

A big thanks to Mike Nelson for his accurate diligence in finding the answer!  

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you guys post a link to the step by step rewire....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it easy enough to do if one doesn't have electrical experience?( anything electric is a weakness for me, but if it is easy, I may be able to tackle it)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, GSP7 said:

Can you guys post a link to the step by step rewire....

 

1

 

24 minutes ago, Alexio Auditore said:

Is it easy enough to do if one doesn't have electrical experience?( anything electric is a weakness for me, but if it is easy, I may be able to tackle it)

 

@W-T You've got a following... You might edit your article with the steps on how to do this...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@W-T another awesome post.

 

Do you ever use your truck?  The engine bay looks like it's on the showroom floor. :wink::thumbup2:

 

I am going to inspect my wiring this weekend.

 

L8tr

D

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/15/2018 at 9:09 PM, W-T said:

After 18 years of interesting CTD enthusiasts and transmission specialty outlets all contributing their method, or fix, to the well known TC lock unlock syndrome, I can no longer remain silent.

 

Extensive review of many posts regarding TC lock unlock, the rerouting methodes, the add on filters for APPS and last, but not least,...the "tin-foil hat" brigade. I do realize that each individual or company that contributed to the vast amount of information on the web had good intentions and I must acknowledge that some of the procedures caused me to closely examine what these people were trying to do. I believe it is well known that even a blind mouse occasionally finds a morsel of cheese.

 

Again, as it is well known @Mopar1973Man  was the only entity who positively identified the instigating source of this key issue. My entry today is not about alternators...it is about what Daimler/Chrysler did in regard to production of these Cummins powered platforms and the complete disregard of common sense Electronic Engineering.  Please note, this applies to automatic and manual transmissions as each platform is plagued in the same manor with different quirks. 

 

IMG_0231.JPG.08ee70c74847798f0ad2336d0ba86a7f.JPG 

This Blk/Tan #8 gage wire is quite critical in the scheme of things. It is contained within a 1" plastic conduit passing along the front of the engine. It contains water temp sensor leads, air conditioning leads, alternator/PCM leads and the #6 gage alternator charge line to the PDC. This #8 gage Blk/Tan passes over the top/backend of the alternator and is "eventually" connected to the Auxiliary Battery (passenger side) negative terminal.

  

 

IMG_0231a.JPG.8d988b0a825390b80a9e458079321b33.JPG

 

This snapshot of the Factory Service manual documents "four critical ground leads" that are "spliced" in an unconventional method.

 

IMG_0232.JPG.f78fef6507b5b69435e7830179194478.JPG

 

This photo depicts the three #18 gage wires and the single #14 gage wire entering the shrink-tubing where the "crush-splice" occurs. This bundle exits the large plastic conduit below the VP44

 

IMG_0232b.jpg.804153dea38028a5f9abafa0ca0ee3cd.jpg

 

This again is a most disturbing depiction of the Daimler/Chrysler method of splicing critical ground leads and then routing this across the top of the alternator and "eventually" bringing this to ground reference. 

 

IMG_0232d.JPG.fa30ae61395e0f08898c6bf4ade9508b.JPG

 

This photo depicts where this #8 gage Blk/Tan first connects on the way to "eventual" ground...yes this is the Auxiliary Battery tray connector. Please note: it is spliced again and joins the PCM circuit board grounds...which are critical in their own nature...and "eventually" terminate at the negative post of the Auxiliary Battery's negative terminal.  :doh:

 

IMG_0232c.JPG.09b23716f27d80cfcb4afc699f6ecec6.JPG

 

This photo is very interesting, it is the Factory Service manual and the assembly line documentation follows this as a road map in the matrix during production. Please NOTE the title "NAME" to each battery...I looked at this for a considerable amount of time before I realized the assembly line coordinators tried to work with the documentation from the Engineering Staff to "make it as it looks"...Could this single oversight be the reason of a four foot ten inch critical ground wire combination traveling the distance to "EVENTUALLY" terminate at ground? From a basic engineering standpoint regarding ground...you "NEVER CHOOSE THE PATH OF EVENTUAL GROUND" !!! 

 

It is to be the shortest and most concise connection in reference to ground...this is biblical in ALL ELECTRONICS...including pickup trucks. :( !

 

IMG_0233a.JPG.5acd3baf709f1f864ead8b3020dafa6c.JPG

 

Here is the Factory Service manual documenting the PCM circuit board reference ground starting as a pair of #14 gage wires being spliced into a #10 gage bundle and arriving at the Auxiliary Battery through another connector that joins a #8 gage wire that is "splice-joined" under plastic conduit in a Y configuration joining the rouge #8 gage "after passing over the alternator" traversing the entire engine compartment from the driver side of the vehicle. Seriously :doh:

 

I have been drinking excessively, most recently, due to the nature of this blatant discovery.:sick:   

 

IMG_0234.JPG.cebd5abe98b216b4f611e43bb52fef36.JPG

 

This is the hidden Y splice at the Auxiliary Battery where the "mess" EVENTUALLY terminates for ground reference.

 

IMG_0261.JPG.adb246a5ad8d7c1a9bb862cab92a9157.JPG

 

This photo shows the correct "HOLE" of where to apply ground for the VP44, ECM and the PDC...note the logical location

 

IMG_0262.JPG.778cee524a51a1492c7d85557c2f9d60.JPG

 

It took a little research to find the size and proper thread-pitch.

 

IMG_0262a.JPG.bf460745b21883d43dd948c573d25e73.JPG

 

Metric M5 with a 5/16" hex head is perfect

 

IMG_0263.JPG.7da0b3de1032b84d83fab0aa5d7f8ada.JPG

 

This is where you apply a fresh "quality" #6 gage ground and terminate this at the Main Battery negative post on the drivers side for absolute ground reference for the VP44 and ECM 

 

IMG_0264.JPG.5b668a7d3d4d3823cb43ecce21bf0ace.JPG

 

This is a very short and concise reference to ground.

 

IMG_0265.JPG.defcbb47e0fda54a20a26dafca671aff.JPG

 

This is the corrected procedure for a rather critical ground.

 

IMG_0272.JPG.2de8079fcd9ea01b6b77180ceac58f25.JPG

 

The two largest wires originally contained within the 1 inch conduit are no longer present and located well away from the alternator.

 

IMG_0273.JPG.8299e7bf9dabbeeffdf5383fd76e2d5e.JPG

 

My alternator B+ "charge" line is now a #4 gage line directly connected to the Auxiliary Battery and when my new battery terminals arrive and they are secured, I'll provide photos of a completed Master Power Supply System within this engine bay. 

 

With these corrections, I would hypothesize that a poor ripple specification on a given alternator would be overcome by the immense capacitance of the parallel batteries and would become less prone to causing the dreaded TC lock/unlock for automatics and cruise-control abnormalities for the manual transmission platforms. 

 

The #8 gage Blk/Tan passing over the alternator as an "EVENTUAL" ground is gone...the PCM, ECM, VP44 and the PDC are now grounded in accordance of standard Electronic Engineering practices.

 

Respectfully

W-T  

Well guys looks like we got what we wanted!! Thanks @W-T this is awesome info! Also what brand alternator is that? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Marcus2000monsterThanks, and the alternator is a DC Power Engineering XP 270. You'll be able to find them on the web and they are located in Riverside, California. It is a 6 phase large frame unit that produces 200 Amps at idle and NO serpentine belt change is required. I referred to this device in the High Amp alternator thread. 

 

It is basically, a drop in platform however; to utilize the potential of this massive component you must consider a "new B+ charge line". This thread address that issue specifically because, the original #6 gage that is encapsulated in the factory 1 inch plastic conduit located in front of the engine would never survive a charge command from the PCM. The original #6 that directly feeds the PDC and passes through the 140 Amp fuse (which is entirely unnecessary) is fully removed. This is done specifically for three reasons.

 

#1:   A #6 gage B+ line is not adequate to pass 200+ Amps (the XP 270 will produce 305 Amps peak), furthermore, a high-current line in close proximity to sensitive 5 volt logic sensor lines should never have been produced in this manor. Daimler/Chrysler made this error in production of these vehicles  over twenty years ago. Poor performing alternators that developed AC ripple, due to several factors, would permeate the surrounding conductive wires within the harness and render undesired electronic phophas throughout the entire vehicle.

 

#2   The "strange" #6 gage Blk/Tan ground, that is "supposed to provide" critical "reference ground" for the VP and the ECM is directly parallel with this B+ line and in an unfortunate happenstance became a "balanced" pair of "wires" that created a "tuned inductive/capacitive" transmission line to efficiently transport this minor AC ripple with deadly efficiency. This #6 gage Blk/Tan (reference ground) is brought to ground directly as documented in this thread.

 

#3   It definitely cleans up the engine bay with a touch of technical excellence...it is a win-win endeavor for the 2nd Gen Cummins enthusiast :cool:

 

May I add...the Factory original #6 gage B+ line providing as much as 135 Amps during cyclic periods of the "grid heater" event, was NEVER ADEQUATE to conduct that level of current ! Take a moment to examine the factory #6 gage B+ line???.. It's stiff...it's cheap... it's cooked...it is a complete act of buffoonery on behalf of Chryslers Engineering Staff to have produced this level of electronic mediocrity .

 

WARNING: for those of you who have elected to upgrade your system with any platform (alternator) that produce 180 Amps...you too must consider an alternative to this woefully inadequate #6 gage B+ charge line. If it melts down within the Factory conduit...you will lose your ECM..your VP44 and your PCM.

 

With great respect to the Cummins Fraternity...I humbly share this information for the betterment of our rigs.

 

Cheers,

W-T 

 

 

 

  

                     

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)


 

Quote

 

The original #6 that directly feeds the PDC and passes through the 140 Amp fuse (which is entirely unnecessary) is fully removed. This is done specifically for three reasons.

 

#1:   A #6 gage B+ line is not adequate to pass 200+ Amps (the XP 270 will produce 305 Amps peak), furthermore, a high-current line in close proximity to sensitive 5 volt logic sensor lines should never have been produced in this manor. Daimler/Chrysler made this error in production of these vehicles  over twenty years ago. Poor performing alternators that developed AC ripple, due to several factors, would permeate the surrounding conductive wires within the harness and render undesired electronic phophas throughout the entire vehicle.

 

 

I didnt know about this B+ to PDC removal that was left out in the earlier write-up part??

Where is the B+ routed to if removed from the PDC

 

@W-T is there a complete Step By Step of everything that should be re-wired and re routed posted somewhere.?

 

With all due respect,,,The incomplete sparse info,,,  someone is going to try and re-wire and damage some of the truck's expensive electronic components,  unless its is posted in a complete step by step

Rick

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mopar1973Man
Tagged W-T properly to get his attention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crickets

 

 

,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/18/2018 at 1:13 AM, GSP7 said:


 

 

I didnt know about this B+ to PDC removal that was left out in the earlier write-up part??

Where is the B+ routed to if removed from the PDC

 

@W-T is there a complete Step By Step of everything that should be re-wired and re routed posted somewhere.?

 

With all due respect,,,The incomplete sparse info,,,  someone is going to try and re-wire and damage some of the truck's expensive electronic components,  unless its is posted in a complete step by step

Rick

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well it clearly states yhat the wire now goes from alt to passenger battery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 8:09 PM, W-T said:

My alternator B+ "charge" line is now a #4 gage line directly connected to the Auxiliary Battery and when my new battery terminals arrive and they are secured, I'll provide photos of a completed Master Power Supply System within this engine bay. 

 

This is where it went.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is one of the single greatest Cummins threads I have ever seen!! Thank you!!! I have been battling this for 15 years!! I have tried everything, including the tin foil wrap (LOL!)... The only thing that ever really helped, for a while, was cleaning all the battery posts and connectors.... It sucks to have a $7000 transmission, built with love by the best, that can't decide if it's going to be in overdrive or 3rd gear @ 45 mph.... 

Not all heros wear capes!!! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RipnRam99 said:

This is one of the single greatest Cummins threads I have ever seen!! Thank you!!! I have been battling this for 15 years!! I have tried everything, including the tin foil wrap (LOL!)... The only thing that ever really helped, for a while, was cleaning all the battery posts and connectors.... It sucks to have a $7000 transmission, built with love by the best, that can't decide if it's going to be in overdrive or 3rd gear @ 45 mph.... 

Not all heros wear capes!!! 

 

Still, remember to test the alternator for AC noise.  If the diode are already bad the ground mod will not fix bad diodes in the alternator. 

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Still, remember to test the alternator for AC noise.  If the diode are already bad the ground mod will not fix bad diodes in the alternator. 

 

 

I have no idea how to do that... I am sure I don't have the tool... I was interested in the thread about upgraded alternator though... I have a bi-amped stereo, and plan to add extra lights in the future.

Thanks for letting me know though. It seems I might need to find a good electrical shop to have them test that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, RipnRam99 said:

I have no idea how to do that... I am sure I don't have the tool... I was interested in the thread about upgraded alternator though... I have a bi-amped stereo, and plan to add extra lights in the future.

Thanks for letting me know though. It seems I might need to find a good electrical shop to have them test that.

It is not hard to do and only requires a good volt meter.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, RipnRam99 said:

I have a bi-amped stereo, and plan to add extra lights in the future.

 

This might be good time to talk to @W-T about abandon the stock alternator and head upwards to a quality alternator like he's done being he powering high power ham radios.  The stock alternator tend to be dirty power and the diodes are marginal for hold barely the truck without grid heaters but fo you have all that extra lighting, dual stereo amps, grid heater then alternators diodes are going to fail quickly. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah... Well, an ex-employee just recently stole my Fluke meter, so I'm still screwed till I Dole out for a new one.

So... If, when I start the truck, and it takes several seconds for the amps to come up (sometimes it trips the check guages light for a second) ... And.. if when it's idling, or driving at low speed (10-15 mph on the dirt road) and my guage goes up and down, and the head lights dim and get bright over and over again... Is that normal? Because my old truck has been doing that ever since I can remember... The new truck sort of does that too, bit I don't notice the head lights, I think because they are LED...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, RipnRam99 said:

If, when I start the truck, and it takes several seconds for the amps to come up (sometimes it trips the check guages light for a second) ... And.. if when it's idling, or driving at low speed (10-15 mph on the dirt road) and my guage goes up and down, and the head lights dim and get bright over and over again... Is that normal?

 

Yeah and no. 

 

If its the grid heaters then the load is pulling between 95 to 190 amps on a 140 Amps just with the grid heaters. Then you stack on the dual stereo amps now your well over the stock alternator limits of duty. So this why I suggest going up in alternator or remove the grid heaters as a band-aid. Still this will not fix the diode issue currently happening there is no magically cure that will fix burnt diodes. 

 

Denso Alternator Diode or Rectifier

 

So to keep the stock alternator you'd have to ditch your stereo amps and the grid heaters at the bare minimum.

Edited by Mopar1973Man
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×