Diesel around the world

[015point9]

I notice members from Europe and other places joining this site...  I've read in the past the the US has higher HFFR ratio than Europe.  I understand that is the main reason why many in the US add two stroke oil, to help with lubeing up the VP44.

Out of curiosity if you buy fuel out of US how many miles do you get on your vp44.

 

And welcome

 

[Mopar1973Man]

I just sent out a mass email newsletter getting members to update their profiles and member map pins and 911 Support database (optional). I have done this because I was seeing the same thing with all the new members coming in and some of them not even in the US. So I started asking some to add their pins. Then I thought why not just mass email the member pool. 

 

UK fuel is 460 HFRR typically

US fuel is 520 HFRR typically 

 

VP44 should last much longer with the better fuel quality. 

[AlpineRAM]

Premium diesel like MaxxMotion have an HFRR of 269, the 460 you mentioned is the absolute maximum that is allowed in the specs to be sold as diesel fuel.

 

The obligatory addition of up to 7% biodiesel makes for HFRR in the typical range of 300-330 in Austria. (IIncluding discount fuel stations)

 

VP44 longevity- all of the VP44s I had to change were due to electronic defects (no bus communication, burnt components on the PCB) , the pumps were still OK mechanically.

On average the trucks with pump defects were at about 400 000 kms. (But a lot of them were badly neglected, fuel filter never changed, no fuel pressure from the lift pump for a long time, jump starting due to bad batteries and often bad alternators)

In the excavators and other machinery with the 24V engine the normal lifetime of the VP44 was over 10 000 hours if the machinery was taken care of. (Most of the machines were sold off at 10-12k hours, most with the stock IP still running strong)

A notable exception was a stone crusher that ate VP44s at a rate of 1VP44 per 80 hours. No lift pump, fuel tank about 2 meters below the IP, letting the tank run dry frequently and starting until the IP had re-primed itself after running out.

(Don't ask me how many starters they used... )

[dripley]

49 minutes ago, AlpineRAM said:

No lift pump, fuel tank about 2 meters below the IP, letting the tank run dry frequently and starting until the IP had re-primed itself after running out.

(Don't ask me how many starters they used..

I don't think you could mistreat a VP much worse than that. My current one has 233k miles on it. We will see how much further it will go.

[AlpineRAM]

1 hour ago, dripley said:

I don't think you could mistreat a VP much worse than that. My current one has 233k miles on it. We will see how much further it will go.

You would need a sledgehammer or some explosives to top that

[Mopar1973Man]

2 hours ago, AlpineRAM said:

You would need a sledgehammer or some explosives to top that

 

My last VP44 last till 243k miles and then puked by pulling full advancement of timing and still continued to drive me home 15 miles at a total speed of 25-30 MPH. The truck wasn't happy but it made it home. Of course P0216 code.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[015point9]

Thanks, insightful comments.

When pumping fuel I often stare at the decal that says..." recommended for all diesel motors" knowing my next step is to mess with two stroke oil.  

[Mopar1973Man]

13 minutes ago, 015point9 said:

When pumping fuel I often stare at the decal that says..." recommended for all diesel motors" knowing my next step is to mess with two stroke oil.

 

I never forget this picture by Bosch...

 

Then remembering that US fuel is 520 HFRR...

 

 

[AlpineRAM]

Well, about the 2stroke oil- we found that with some sorts of diesel fuel the 2stroke oil did not improve HFRR ratings at all.

What it always did was to decrease cold tolerance, mainly plugged up fuel filters when cold.

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Weird... Out here the snowmobile 2 cycle oil has much lower pour point down -50*F compared to winterized 2 diesel at -20*F. No plugging has happened for me all the way down to -40*F.

[AlpineRAM]

Snowmobile 2cycle is in the "hen's teeth" category over here. I used ELF LubHTX976- with a bit of cerium salts added, so with a mixture of the oil/diesel 1/800 I get about 3,5 ppm cerium in the mixture.

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Ahh that explains some. Snowmobile oil normally cut with PPD (pour point depressants) which is naptha or another chemical that I can't remember now.

[Dieselfuture]

I want to hear more

[AlpineRAM]

Pour point is not really the point there- cloud point is much more interesting. 

At cloud point you start plugging filters.

And it's the cloud point of the mixture- not the product you buy. If they mix 90% lube with 10% "cold additive" there is the distinct possibility that the cold additive will get dissolved in the 98% diesel (running 1:50 for the sake of argument) and leaving the base oil as a crystalline mess in your filter.

This is strongly dependant on the fuel and oil chemistry you have in your tank. (And not easily reproducable on a different continent)

Since 2 stroke oil is made to be either injected in it's pure form (where pour point gets interesting), or dissolved in gasoline (which is processed almost unfiltered by diesel standards, and gasoline having a cloud point below any reasonable operating temperature, and gasoline being a cold temperature solvent for the 2 stroke oil) the effects of mixing it with diesel are hard to predict.

Therefore it is beneficial to state the product names of all the involved components and the location of purchase, since the same product may have a different formulation depending on the location.

( Don't ask me how much work it was to get my truck back to working order after filling up with diesel from Sicily and getting to park it in freezing weather in the mountains some days later)

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by AlpineRAM

[Mopar1973Man]

You absolutely correct. Problem is that most MSDS sheets for 2 Cycle Oil states only pour point. True diesel cloud point is much higher typically.

[wil440]

Over here in the UK I'd say the main thing going for extended fuel pump life is the rediculous cost of diesel  around £1.29 per litre therefore most do very little mileage. On my 3500 my insurance had 1500 limited miles. think Its 3k on the 2500.  154000k on the 2500, vp looks to be original. been here since 04

[Mopar1973Man]

Wow. I figured diesel was primary fuel for vehicles over there. I guess UK like the US constantly pushing petrol. Sad...

[AlpineRAM]

In th UK diesel is a bit (about 4%) more expensive than petrol.

In Austria petrol is about 6-7% more expensive than diesel.  (Except for some strange fluctuations sometimes- mostly for advertising purposes)

But for both we are close to 6 US$/gal, and the poor sods in the UK are closer to 6.50 US$/gal of diesel.

Still, if you drive much the diesel is economically viable due to the better mileage. The new turbo direct injection gassers start to change that game though..

Edited August 3, 2018 by AlpineRAM
Typo

[wil440]

Diesel was pushed big time here for years but now gone totally the other way due to soot but petrol is about the same price at the pumps anyway

[AlpineRAM]

Cool that the UK hates diesels for soot or particulate matter while the DI gassers emit much more of it..

NOx as the red flag in the other countries is understandable, but with SCR cat tech it can be reduced to almost nil... if the car manufacturers do not cheat (I'm looking at you Volkswagen!)