Top hat valve seal and valve train

[Mopar1973Man]

Let me know I can order some put them in the store. 

[mossyoak71]

11 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Let me know I can order some put them in the store. 

Oh I will. We just might find a solution to the problem. Hopefully not a problem to the solution ?

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Let me know I can order some put them in the store. 

Will do, it was my plan. Now we just need some hope they fit. And also if they fit on my head I'm hoping that's how rest of heads were machined. 

All else fails we already have a great place to by seals, so you can add them to the list for original seals, I listed part numbers in my earlier post. 

[dripley]

I have been watching this one intently. I will be pulling my head for a weepy HG. Figured I might as go all the way with it while its off. I have neither smelled or seen evidence of my engine burning any oil. Guess I will get a better look when the head comes off.

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, dripley said:

I have been watching this one intently. I will be pulling my head for a weepy HG. Figured I might as go all the way with it while its off. I have neither smelled or seen evidence of my engine burning any oil. Guess I will get a better look when the head comes off.

I think these trucks go after whoever starts to fix them and they just keep on braking and if you ignore it then it get mad and just works.

[dripley]

1 minute ago, Dieselfuture said:

I think these trucks go after whoever starts to fix them and they just keep on braking and if you ignore it then it get mad and just works.

A lot of truth in that. Seen it on mine some.

[Mopar1973Man]

Never really seen it on mine. My truck is spoiled. Parked in a garage every night. Kept clean outside, inside and under the hood. Fluids and maintenance kept up. Don't get me wrong some things have plain worn out and failed but looking at the history of the part and how many 100's of thousands of miles I got from the part I'm not complaining one bit. 

 

No pavement princess here she get worked hard, hauling firewood, driving offroad, even working with USFS on wildland fires. 

[Dieselfuture]

Not that you're selling it but if you did chances are it'll start going down hill faster then if you just kept driving it. I know it ....

[dripley]

I am not complaining about mine. Still lots of OEM stuff going strong. Might fail tomorrow but at 450k I ain't complaining. Hoping there is nothing wrong with the head I pull it that a machine shop cant cure.

 I have worked mine different than, pavement queen for the part. I have hauled some big loads down the road and she has never refused to do what though she does have a mind of her at times. Wish I had a garage to put mine in. 

[Dieselfuture]

40 minutes ago, dripley said:

Hoping there is nothing wrong with the head I pull it that a machine shop cant cure.

Hopefully you'll be fine with just basic valve job, decking, maybe new guides. If these seals I'm waiting on don't fit I

I would spend few extra bucks and have them machine that little lip off the bottom of guide, so you can use newer style top hat seals. You may not have to do any of that except new seals and surface the head, but at that mileage if it was me I'd do valve job. But then again one of old members here went 1.3 million miles without opening engine I believe 

Edit, or maybe it was without overhauling it

Edited August 10, 2018 by Dieselfuture

[Dieselfuture]

Made a little progress today. Head just has valves left in it, so tomorrow if I get time I'm planning on retorque the head. Then I'll be waiting on seals to show up and few goodies to go along with. First set of seals came in, I got regular ones that look top notch and newer style top hats but that lip is definitely on the way, they do slide on the guide nice and tight and bottom out on the lip. Hopefully other kind will fit, we'll see. Also took 7x10 injectors apart and looks like brand new nozels, not sure what brand but definitely not reworked Bosch. Looks like good quality though. Pulled windshield wiper guts out since I have to replace motor anyway and one push rod didn't come out, it was hitting the swing arm on wiper. I'm also thinking getting some SS 1/4" screen and covering them big holes where windshield wiper motor sits to keep future mice and debris out, here is an injector with about 6k on it, looks a bit carboned up to me in such short time, but this stuff whipped right off with just a rag. 

[dave110]

Thanks for all the updates. This is all good info. That we'll all need someday...…………...if we all keep our heaps long enough.

[Dieselfuture]

Got some stuff in today but not all was included, talked to Trevor at Manton and he said it will ship next day tomorrow. 

This is some quality stuff here, the only problem I'm seeing if it's even a problem is springs fit very tight in a hole. But they do fit, I'm waiting on reply from Trevor. He said not all Cummins heads were identical and he'll check tomorrow when he goes to work. I'm probably over thinking it but want to be safe. So far I got 12 1/2" push rods, 24 springs and 48 keepers, 5 bridges lol, and set of arp bolts to hold trunions. Trunions didn't show and missing 7 bridges once again lol but a little but hurt. 

And I also got these other seals with a lip, they are ready close but with few issues that I see, that may be delt with. The OD is bigger at bottom which I shaved not a concern, overall height is ok, the only thing is where it presses on guide is tight and needs light shaving. I'll play with it some more when I get more time. Overall seals are doable but with modification so not sure if this is going to be for everyone. In picture you can see I shaved rubber f most bottom lip for the lip on the head but that didn't need to be done the hung up was on guide itself. This is kinda hard to explain but if you were looking at it it would make sense. One other thing I noticed on seals is original has 2 lips to ride on valve and the on I'm trying to make work has one.

In assembled picture seal is in place.

Picture with seals, on on left is tophat if you machine the lip off, using it for diameter on base, middle is the one I shaved and right is the one that needs shaving.

Arp bolts are longer for more grip.

 

[Dieselfuture]

So after long discussions with multiple people I've decided to give these springs a go. Now to be clear these springs are conical design and not beehive. It's somewhat new in diesel world from what I understand but been around in gas motors for a while. They are harder to produce and that's where the cost comes in. In my case I probably don't need them but I was going to get some springs ether way and I got a good deal so I'm not out too much more, as long as everything works out and it should. Same thing goes for pushrods I was looking for a 3/8 set but once again got a good deal on 1/2" and from understanding it's better all around. Trunions were galled up and weren't going to get better and adding extra load from heavier springs will make it worse I'm sure, so why not it's only money right. And that goes for bridges, since I had experienced premature guide wear I decided to stiffen things up, maybe I am harder on my truck then I thought. 

So if it all plans out, I'm hoping the only thing I'll be taking valve cover off is to adjust valves. 

Almost forgot I did finally fit the seal and it seems to be good, good chance I'll be using them. In the picture you can see I grounded down OD of base on both seals and shaved a bit of rubber where it slips over guide on one, you can see darker portion on bottom where it pressed over guide. So we'll see if guess. 

I used 31/64th drill bit in reverse to shave rubber 1/2 may be ok but not sure yet. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Dieselfuture

[Dieselfuture]

Got seals and springs installed. I used top hats on exhaust side and regular on intakes as all of intake seals were not damaged. On top hat seal there is only one lip that rides on a valve and that is so it wipes more oil, since these seals are from a gasser EPA doesn’t want gasses to use any oil. So what I did is removed the little spring that holds tension to valve stem. 

On to another potential problem. Seals that were popped up had carbon/soot built up in the gap inside the seal, where it had airdog space. I want to blame exhaust brake for that but not sure, please let me know your thoughts. So the top hats I'm using are not designed for this head and it will have a little gap at the top as they are a little bit taller (yes there's plenty of clearance left for retainers) so I'm guessing soot will try to accumulate in that pocket and may cause premature wear on guide/valve, unless I quit using EB if that's the cause. 

Let me hear your thoughts. 

 

See how much soot built up, and valve was sticky because of it. 

[Mopar1973Man]

55 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

On to another potential problem. Seals that were popped up had carbon/soot built up in the gap inside the seal, where it had airdog space. I want to blame exhaust brake for that but not sure, please let me know your thoughts.

 

I'll let you know. I've also got an exhaust brake as well I'm gearing up to start down this project being I've got a set of standard valve seals.

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

I'll let you know. I've also got an exhaust brake as well I'm gearing up to start down this project being I've got a set of standard valve seals.

You'll probably not have that build up as your seals are tight to the seat and all carbon would go right through in side valve cover. Reason I say that is your truck probably didn't see much abuse in early life so seals had time to wear in place. So later when you went with more boost and egts seals had enough blow by to let gasses through. I'm just thinking out loud here. 

Best thing to do imo is to machine the head to accept Top Hat style seals that were ment for these heads on later models. That way it's tight to the seat with no gap and will never blow off. But in situations like mine or @mossyoak71 it may be worth while. It's a big maybe as I won't know end results, if truck runs fine and doesn't burn oil. At that point carbon can be building up in void space and wearing down guides, but I'll never know unless I take it all upart to inspect. I was going to use some metal lock or lions head to try and glue the original seal down but I kept thinking about what if some of that stuff gets on a valve and goes in a guide, what then. 

So I'm trying this and if all else fails and I'll ruin something, then the head is going to machine shop anyway, so I'll just have them machine it for the right seals then. Now it's hurry up and wait. 

[mossyoak71]

Well after much deliberation and reading, I have decided to use the Pioneer Automotive T-51444. Just ordered it off eBay. If it doesn't work out, then no harm no foul. I need to o ring my head anyways due to high boost pressure but just haven't talked myself into it yet. So I will by a head and have all the work done to it in the near future. For now I just want to stop the smoking at the stop lights and in slow traffic. Bugs the crap out of me. 

[Dieselfuture]

2 hours ago, mossyoak71 said:

Pioneer Automotive T-51444

Wells best of luck to you, let us know the outcome. And I left few drops on my table of that pioneer stuff for few days and it was steel wet. Unless it's anaerobic, means it cures under pressure with no air.

[Dieselfuture]

Want to wrap this thread up by saying I'm very pleased with the quality of Manton products and everything seems to be functioning well including 7x10 vco injectors from dap. No more smoke on start up with using custom top hat seals that are ment for Ford 4.0 v6. Truck is much more responsive and not much more smoke. Seems to be more crisp with higher RPM. Now only time will tell. 

 

Edit.

Here is what I got from Manton incase someone is wondering. Does it worth the price, idk, but for few more hundred dollars vs competitors it gives you pice of mind, Jmo.

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Dieselfuture