Weird issue with brake pedal feel and PS pump

[adamey1000]

Someone should plumb in the oil temp probe from their Quadzilla and get some temps. Doesn’t seem like it would be too hard to do that, or a manual temp gauge and really see what it is doing. 

 

@KATOOM, are you measuring with a temp gun?

[Mopar1973Man]

While your all worrying about temperatures of the power steering I look at something a bit different. First off @dripley at 451k miles and still got the stock power steering pump as well as myself at 354k miles and still no issues. Then here in about 2 months, there will be snow on the ground for me. My mornings are starting now at 45*F and getting colder. By the time I get to full winter swing, I can see temps as low as -30*F for the months of December or January. I'll keep doing power steering flushes and changing the fluid. Here in the next week I should have my new 245's on the truck and reduce a bit more steering heat from the system with smaller tires. 

 

I'll measure my power steering fluid this winter we'll talk another story. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[KATOOM]

54 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

By the time I get to full winter swing, I can see temps as low as -30*F for the months of December or January. I'll keep doing power steering flushes and changing the fluid. Here in the next week I should have my new 245's on the truck and reduce a bit more steering heat from the system with smaller tires. 

 

I'll measure my power steering fluid this winter we'll talk another story. 

 

Your frigid winter temps would give me reason to think about not installing a cooler.  Although a simple shield or winter front would probably prevent any excessive cooling issues.  And in -30* weather a winter front wouldn't be a bad idea for many other reasons too.  Thats COLD.

 

In regards to my tires...  The truck came factory equipped with 265's.  I highly doubt my 285's are overtaxing the steering system or the brakes.  Especially since I just replaced the front pads at 115k miles with 1/8" material still left on them.

The constant pressure within the hydroboost system (as Haggar so elegantly pointed out) is the reason for the heat.  Heat is bad and breaks down lubricants.  And when there's a small quantity of lubricant (I.e, the PS system), the integrity can be an issue unless someone is diligent like you to swap it out often.  As I mentioned before, I think Dodge simply cut corners by not installing a PS cooler.

 

59 minutes ago, adamey1000 said:

Someone should plumb in the oil temp probe from their Quadzilla and get some temps. Doesn’t seem like it would be too hard to do that, or a manual temp gauge and really see what it is doing. 

 

@KATOOM, are you measuring with a temp gun?

 

Yes, I'm using a laser temp gun.  I dont think monitoring the PS fluid temp is worth the trouble.  Its just as easy to pop the hood every now and then and see what temperature the lines are.

Edited August 31, 2018 by KATOOM

[Haggar]

Katoom,

 

That is an interesting play in the brake pedal.  My truck is not here, but I will try to look at mine this weekend. 

 

My first thought is "is your accumulator working properly?"   With the truck off, you should have 2 to 3 fully boosted brake applications before the accumulator is drained.   My truck, with the engine off, the next two brake applications "feel" just like the engine is on. The third application feels odd, and the 4th the pedal feels all wrong.....

 

Sorry guys I couldn't stop the comparison....  Katoom has the baby bear cooler,  NIsaacs has the papa bear... so that makes mine the mama bear cooler....

 

 

Here is a neat chart (sorry it is in spanish)  but 20C is about 68F (and 100C is 212F).   The viscosity grows significantly in the colder temps.  So your steering could feel "sluggish" in the really cold.  (yes this doesn't show "power steering fluid" but it does show ATF (how bout you auto boys in the winter?)  and the Viscosity/temperature curve should be similar)     I have not noticed a cold weather problem in mine (but of course here, our frost line is less than a foot, and we are lucky when we get snow), but my system will start to whine more when I am in the woods, going slow and turning constantly maneuvering around trees and stumps and stuff in the summer. 

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, Haggar said:

I have not noticed a cold weather problem in mine (but of course here, our frost line is less than a foot, and we are lucky when we get snow), but my system will start to whine more when I am in the woods, going slow and turning constantly maneuvering around trees and stumps and stuff in the summer. 

 

4 to 5 foot frost line. My power steering whines in the dead cold start. Even my 46RE in the half ton whines in the cold on initial start up.  

 

11 hours ago, KATOOM said:

In regards to my tires...  The truck came factory equipped with 265's.  I highly doubt my 285's are overtaxing the steering system or the brakes.  Especially since I just replaced the front pads at 115k miles with 1/8" material still left on them.

 

LOL. I'm going to clear over 200k miles on brakes. Then I dropped the 265's long ago for the 235's made huge saving fuel wise, ball joint wise, tie rod wise and even track bar wise. Just that small width change of the tires extended the life of everything. Even reduced the temperature of the power steering fluid. Now the change to 245's is going to change slightly wider at 10mm 0.3 inches thne 1 full inch smaller. Will it have an impact? Sure it will. Being I've managed to get all front parts and brakes to outlive the average seen on the Internet. Kind of like the switch to 215's on the 96 Dodge already made a +2 MPG gain on that truck from the 235's I had!

[KATOOM]

Moparman in a 20 years.....?

 

[Mopar1973Man]

LMAO... I'm not going that extreme. I don't think that little tire could hold the torque. 

 

My selection on size is more based on final gear ratio and face width for the amount of power I'm putting out. Realizing if I go down 1 inch of tire size and gaining nearly 3.73 gear (3.69:1 ratio) this means I've got to keep some width for traction purpose. Hence why I'm looking at the 245's for the Cummins and the half-ton got the 215's being its fraction of the power and fraction of the weight (5,500 pounds). I'm actually applying a bit of science and calculation to the choice. Like the brakes and power steering life span.

 

I'm more in the science of it, not the cool factor. Leverage is still leverage and work is work. Work always creates heat. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[KATOOM]

At least we can laugh at ourselves...

[Mopar1973Man]

Something to try @KATOOM ... Now go out in a paved parking lot. With shoes on foot flat on the ground. Now try to pivot your entire foot on the pavement. You'll most likely break your ankles trying. Now get up on the ball of your foot and pivot you can spin with ease. Size does matter to leverage force where looking at steering. This why it not suggested to have a quick ratio steering back with any tire above 265's because it will kill the steering gear quickly as it will be the weak link like your ankles will be. Being it takes more pressure to twist the large tire hence fluid temperatures are higher. 

 

Again a tidbit of science. Just for fun I'll make a lap to town and back today and measure the fluid temp for you. 

[KATOOM]

2 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Something to try @KATOOM ... Now go out in a paved parking lot. With shoes on foot flat on the ground. Now try to pivot your entire foot on the pavement. You'll most likely break your ankles trying. Now get up on the ball of your foot and pivot you can spin with ease. Size does matter to leverage force where looking at steering. This why it not suggested to have a quick ratio steering back with any tire above 265's because it will kill the steering gear quickly as it will be the weak link like your ankles will be. Being it takes more pressure to twist the large tire hence fluid temperatures are higher. 

 

Again a tidbit of science. Just for fun I'll make a lap to town and back today and measure the fluid temp for you. 

 

Absolute truth...  I dont think most people understand what kind of force they're asking of their steering components, suspension, and tires when they crank the wheel without the vehicle moving.  Some vehicles dont seem to be phased by it but others you can almost see the struggle.

And in saying that, all the tires have to be doing is moving the slightest amount to remove almost all pressure when turning.  Not fast either but simply moving at any rate of speed...

[Mopar1973Man]

Just like me driving up a narrow one lane forestry road and find out I've got to turn around in the road. You end up doing like a good 5 point forward and backup there is some time when that space is extremely limited and you have to force that steering from lock to lock without moving. Worse yet doing the same thing in an old school small parking lot with pavement and limited room to maneuver.

 

I understand the purpose of tires sizes. Like walking in snow every step you make your foot will sink. Throw on a set of snowshoes and you can walk on top of the snow. This would be the same for mud or sand. Size does matter to the application and usage but there is an inherent risk of damage, being stuck from lack of traction/floatation or worse yet loss of control of the vehicle from too much floatation on icy roads. 

[Mopar1973Man]

5 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Again a tidbit of science. Just for fun I'll make a lap to town and back today and measure the fluid temp for you.

 

After driving 30 miles highway speeds I measured 150*F in the reservoir. The hoses were hot but not enough to burn you but not enough to make me let go either. 

[NIsaacs]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 9:06 AM, NIsaacs said:

 

 

I just went on a quick 3 mile round trip to load my dump trailer, slow 1st gear road and let it idle while I unloaded. I checked temps on the system. The pump was 135*, hydro boost 135, lines 105 and the gear box was 114....interesting.

 

 

Just hauled 3 loads of cinders, 20 mile round trip, 14 miles of slow county road pavement and 6 miles of slower dirt, ambient temps from 70-90, truck ECT was an average of 185. On my middle load with AC on, truck idling, the pump was 109, hydro 109, box 106, lines 105 and cooler 88. I tested the lines where the rubber meets the metal, about 6-8" from the hydro, I didn't test the lines at the box.

 

This is with 285/75x16 tires, stock aluminum wheels. This size has been on the truck since I bought it, in '03 with 34k miles, it now has 320k. The front end is all original, other than the brakes and shocks.

[KATOOM]

Good info guys.....good info.

[Mopar1973Man]

Might dip a thermometer right into the fluid and get a measurement too. 

[Dieselfuture]

Wow looks like a cooler is doing it's job, I wonder if it will be too much cooling in winter 

I have a cooler similar to yours, I dug it out and been iballing it thinking to put it on lol.

[Mopar1973Man]

14 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

After driving 30 miles highway speeds I measured 150*F in the reservoir. The hoses were hot but not enough to burn you but not enough to make me let go either. 

 

Just for point of reference outside temperatures was 80*F.

 

Like this morning I'm getting up and its 45*F and dark. If I had that cooler on I be in trouble really quick. winter temperatures are around the corner. By October typically there is snow on the ground in the high country. 

[NIsaacs]

2 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Like this morning I'm getting up and its 45*F and dark. If I had that cooler on I be in trouble really quick. 

 

Why? I live in AZ but it can get cold here. I don't expect any problems with outside temps. The pump makes heat almost immediately. 

[Mopar1973Man]

16 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

Why? I live in AZ but it can get cold here.

 

By the time I reach December, it will be close to -30*F here. I'm just alerting people to be aware of the weather condition and consider this mod like yourself you in the southern half of the states which is fine but us northern folks should not do this mod. 

[KATOOM]

4 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

By the time I reach December, it will be close to -30*F here. I'm just alerting people to be aware of the weather condition and consider this mod like yourself you in the southern half of the states which is fine but us northern folks should not do this mod. 

 

4 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

 

Why? I live in AZ but it can get cold here. I don't expect any problems with outside temps. The pump makes heat almost immediately. 

 

You both need to check the PS temps this winter and compare results...  I'll be posting mine too.