Newbie; Big Motor Tuning; Black Smoke Questions

[int3man]

HI Guys,  I bought a Built unit and I'm dealing with the Black smoke output.   As long as I leave it in Cruise control it will just build boost and climb the hill in overdrive.  But when I interface with the throttle Black Smoke BABY!! Drop out of over drive and it goes for a little then it Black smokes.  So in doing my learning, reading, It's been suggested that a Quadzilla V2 would allow me to tone down the injectors, and Tame the Smoke.  I have a rebuilt Injector pump with 2 years warranty so I would like to forgo the wiretap mod to start with.  As I read the Wire tap is to increase the fuel, and that is not my issue. 

 

I was just reading where another gentleman here had purchased a Turbo that was too large and would not be up on boost while cruising at 70 MPH  I pull around 2 psi at cruise.  My guts tell me that I have too large injectors for my application.  But what a Beast!!!  So I need to haul a couple of cars on trailers and I really wanted a truck that I can get decent mileage with.  We just got through a 2,000 mile get to know you road trip.  I averaged 17.4 MPG and learning.  So I don;t know the Spec's on the Turbo but here is what I have.  Dana 80 Disc with 354 gears.  Long term I want to sell the Motorhome and get a 5th wheel, so towing without smoking is going to be important.  The Borg Warner says that it will spool fast and make for a good daily driver or a tow rig. 

 

S&B cold air intake; Borg Warner t-4 billet s369-sxe w/.91 ar  ; Billet intake plenum; Grid heater delete; Tunnel ram; Sac 250 hp injectors; Arp headstuds; Hamilton 188/220 camshaft; 110 valve springs; Uprgraded push rods; FASS 150 platinum lift pump; Hallman billet fuel sump; New injection pump 2 year warranty; New apps throttle position sensor; 4 inch down pipe; 4 inch exhaust;  Built transmission with triple disc converter

 

I've got an appointment to get the skin cancer taken care of in 2 weeks.

 

Thanks in advance for assisting me in my learning experience.

Michael

[Mopar1973Man]

I've got to ask what sized tires are you running? Final gear ratio to the ground makes a huge impact on spool up and smoke control.

[TFaoro]

That's a horrible turbo for both a high performance single and towing. 

Sounds to me like you need to drop down to 7x.010 injectors with a

62/68/14, 62/68/12, 62/65/14, or 62/65/12.Those should be T3 turbos as well. 

Then get a quad with V2 and enjoy smokeless power. 

[Me78569]

yea like I told you on smarty resource that turbo is not going to do what you need it to do.  

[Mopar1973Man]

I remember talking to @trreed about his setup and he's got to do some really strange fuel mapping to make large injectors driveable on his rig. The 7 x 0.010 injector and smaller turbo seems to be a crowd favorite and powerful combo. I'm close at 7. 0.0085 and HX35/40 hybrid (60/60/12) and can tear the tire lose in 4th.

 

Instead of looking to build big power I look at reducing drag so now I've got big power without the huge amounts of drag. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

7 x .010's are still the best pick for a 500 hp truck in my mind.   you have to run duration alittle harder plus wiretap, but they dont require huge tuning working to get them clean.  

if you dont want wiretap then I would be looking at 7 x .011's or so.    

 

As for tuning your choices are quadzilla with V2 or udc pro.  Quadzilla is much cheaper and easier to get your mind around, but not as thorough of tuning as udc pro.   

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Me78569

[trreed]

Already been said, but yes, ditch the S369 and the T4 manifold.  Neither is suited for a VP truck.

[int3man]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I've got to ask what sized tires are you running? Final gear ratio to the ground makes a huge impact on spool up and smoke control.

I was told 354 and the tires are 285 75 16.  He was into going fast! 

 

I understand what everyone is saying and I appreciate it, about it not being Exactly what I wanted, but for a starting point it was good and I can always trade down.

 

So I've seen one suggestion for injector / Turbo combo no wire tap.  Daily driver and tower I like the 500 HP range.  Any others?

42 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

yea like I told you on smarty resource that turbo is not going to do what you need it to do.  

HI Me78569,

                      I read your reply over there and that is why I moved over hear.  I didn't what to ask Quadzilla questions on the Smarty forum.  Bad manners.

 

Thanks for your replies and advice.  I'll probably be getting Godzilla V2 and Taking to the local turbo guy to see what trade value this Borg Warner and 250 HP injectors have,

 

Thanks!

Michael

37 minutes ago, trreed said:

Already been said, but yes, ditch the S369 and the T4 manifold.  Neither is suited for a VP truck.

O.K.  Still learning whats a VP Truck?

 

Thanks !

Michael

[Mopar1973Man]

7 minutes ago, int3man said:

I was told 354 and the tires are 285 75 16.  He was into going fast! 

 

Might not be into fast, but this combo put lots of stress on the transmissions and driveline. Very inefficient typically lowers the MPG's Drops your final ratio down 3.42 to the ground which not efficient for our trucks. Somewhere around 3.73 is optimal. To get things straighten out you would have to either consider regearing to 3.73 or ditch the tires. 

 

I've done my study work on this...

https://mopar1973man.com/topic/14325-new-tire-size-found-235s-to-245s/

Edited August 29, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[trreed]

9 minutes ago, int3man said:

O.K.  Still learning whats a VP Truck?

the VP44 is your injection pump. Found on the 98.5-02 pickups. Some refer to it as a 24 valve, some refer to it as a VP truck, and yet others just simply refer to it as a problem!

Edited August 29, 2018 by trreed

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, trreed said:

yet others just simply refer to it as a problem!

 

Oh come on now... 

[int3man]

1 minute ago, trreed said:

the VP44 is your injection pump. Found on the 98.5-02 pickups. Some refer to it as a 24 valve, some refer to it as a VP truck, and yet others just simply refer to it as a problem!

Ah HA a problem now that I am familiar with!!!

 

Thanks

Michael

[Me78569]

Vp trucks make power in the 1800-2600 rpm area normally, this is why big singles dont work well, by the time the engine is pumping enough air to get the turbo moving you are out of RPMS and power falls off.  

 

 

For 500 hp with wiretap, 62/68/12 with some 7 x .011 or 7 x .012 injectors.  if you are going to wiretap down the road then 7 x .011's would be easier to tune the smoke out of.  

[Mopar1973Man]

Just now, Me78569 said:

Vp trucks make power in the 1800-2600 rpm area normally, this is why big singles dont work well, by the time the engine is pumping enough air to get the turbo moving you are out of RPMS and power falls off.

 

This is why I focus on the drags and loss of tires and ratio because these can impact the range that your RPM's fall in. Then with @Me78569 and his comment they kind of go hand in hand with each other.

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, TFaoro said:

62/68/14, 62/68/12, 62/65/14, or 62/65/12.Those should be T3 turbos as well.

If i may add, I have a custom built turbo from  http://www.northamericanturbo.com 62/67/12 and 7x10vco that I'm currently in love with, for a good price that allows me to use the exhaust brake that uses 5 bolt flange. Although I am limited to 3" exhaust outlet, so it can get a bit hotter when I'm on it. If exhaust brake is not a concern get the turbos mentioned above with 4" down pipe, imo it's a great set up. 

I don't use EB as much now and some day I may just sell my set up and get the 62/68/12. But at this point I got more  then I need without braking stuff. 

[Mopar1973Man]

4 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

If i may add, I have a custom built turbo from  http://www.northamericanturbo.com 62/67/12 and 7x10vco that I'm currently in love with, for a good price that allows me to use the exhaust brake that uses 5 bolt flange.

 

Damn, my dream turbo... 

[Dieselfuture]

Just now, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Damn, my dream turbo... 

Funny you say that, I was always chasing your tail on injectors and then your hybrid turbo, but when I couldn't find parts to come close I decided to have one built and after installing it realized I need bigger injectors. That's how I got to where I'm at now.

[int3man]

O.K.  So now I need to learn what the numbers mean on Turbos.  Is there a Turbo 101 anywhere?

 

I'm going to guess that the first number is the Inlet Diameter and the Second is the Exit diameter for the exhaust, but the third might be blade count?  I don't have a clue.

 

Thanks

Michael

[Mopar1973Man]

I keep seeing that 62/68/12 combo which I fell would be a much better match than my current 60/60/12. Since I'm always on a limited and tight budget it makes it tough to jump into a fresh turbo. So I guess I can dream about it. 

1 minute ago, int3man said:

O.K.  So now I need to learn what the numbers mean on Turbos.  Is there a Turbo 101 anywhere?

 

Basically in a nutshell. 62/68/12

 

62mm compressor wheel diameter.

68mm turbine wheel diameter.

12cm² exhaust housing. 

 

There is much more than that being the exducer and the inducer sizes of the wheels. But in a quickie that what the 3 numbers mean. 

[int3man]

Cool Thanks! 

I have to get to work now.  Learn more tonight!

Michael