DAP Injector Upgrade 7 x 0.010 @ 320 Bar

[Marcus2000monster]

Well thanks to you guys I just spent 675 hard earned dollars! 

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, Marcus2000monster said:

Hanks for the advice guys mike you did maybe I could make my low popping sticks run better with a qaud so my e I will get just the qaud for now and make the 75s run better till I can better afford 7x10s. 

Definitely get the qwad first then everything else. This will give you plenty of power for now and time to learn it. 

Just now, Marcus2000monster said:

Well thanks to you guys I just spent 675 hard earned dollars! 

Finally  I didn't think this day would come as many times as its been discussed ha ha. You'll be loving every minute of it, I'm more excited for you then I think I was when I got mine, but it's been a while and lots has changed. Now you'll be on quadzilla tune page all the time good luck 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

OMG! Did @Marcus2000monster pull the trigger on a Quadzilla? You'll be happy with the tuner. Last one you'll buy. Now I would next send those injectors in for repopping.

[Marcus2000monster]

Haha I can’t wait! I’ll prob end up with stock injectorsfor a little and then I’ll jump to the 7x10s when funds permit... 

[pepsi71ocean]

On 1/30/2019 at 8:29 PM, Marcus2000monster said:

I think I can have a smoke free lag free truck with 90s gets will be a bit high. What do you think @pepsi71ocean

 

With an HX--35 your limit injector wise is around 100's for towing. Since your up at altitude I'd say your fine with them popped higher. But by how much It seems the 320 is a safe number to set to, Could set to 325 for added bump, but I don't expect to wait that long, I'll add popping injectors to my list of maintenance items along with the coolant flushes, at every 30K.

 

On 1/30/2019 at 9:25 PM, kzimmer said:

 

I have a family friend that cracked a 53 block in an RV with about 40,000 miles or so... But it had a cooling system failure on an long grade and overheated. I haven't read much about the 53 blocks, but from what I've heard, overheating the engine can lead to the cracking. That said, have you considered running a 180° thermostat to help keep the block in one piece? To me it would be cheap insurance.

 

From what I've read that the issue isn't so much the heat, its the thermal expansion being of different temperatures. Some have talked about running a 1/2 barb from the back of the head to the front for coolant flow.

 

On 1/31/2019 at 8:33 AM, Marcus2000monster said:

I’m getting 245s next time. I totally agree with your theory on tire sizes. 

 

I'm running 215's as I'm a dully and I love the torque I have with this truck.

[trreed]

Me78569 has done plenty of testing at 6000’ of elevation to determine the quadzilla, 7x0.010 and HX35 combination. It will be plenty sufficient at @Marcus2000monster‘s 3000’ for daily and towing duties. 

My injectors are popped at 305 bar at 5300’ (for reference) and are fine on smoke levels with the quadzilla. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by trreed

[Mopar1973Man]

Just remember bottom end of pop pressure is 293 bar. My last batch was set at 305 bar and didn't make 100k miles.

 

I'm hoping that 320 bar I make 100k with good MPG at least.

[trreed]

Mine are designed for a completely different end goal than yours are.

Also, this particular builder would not listen if you wanted a different pop pressure. His testing gave him a pretty good idea on what pressures and pintle lift to use to achieve the horsepower goals. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by trreed

[Mopar1973Man]

14 minutes ago, trreed said:

Mine are also designed for a completely different end goal than yours are.

 

I realize this as well. I'm not after HP alone. 

 

14 minutes ago, trreed said:

Also, this particular builder would not listen if you wanted a different pop pressure. His testing gave him a pretty good idea on what pressures and pintle lift to use to achieve the horsepower goals. 

 

This why I want to do my own experimentation to see the effects of pop pressure for daily driver applications and MPG goals more so than HP/TQ goals. I'm willing to sacrifice some HP/TQ for the longevity of the injectors and MPG performance. Like another brand of injector, I was given I refuse to install because the builder didn't want to provide full details of the injector. Nope, not happening.  

 

I already know that anything set for 305 bar or 300 bar I can promise the injectors will not make it a full 100k miles and be getting pissy and MPG dropping out. Morning white smoke as well. I'm tired of all the builders only thinking priority is HP/TQ. I want longevity and MPG performance. Even smoke control of the 320 bar is awesome very easy to clean up. Once I get done with my MPG tune getting it close I'll build a performance tune going all out power. 

 

Like my 7 x 0.0085 @ 305 bar didn't even make the full 100k miles. MPG on my last few tanks are down to 16 to 17 MPG. These are only 2 years old. The spray quality is shot. The beginning was good strong 20 and 21 MPG number and faded over time. Just got to remember 293 bar is the bottom end of the quality spray. This is why I jumped to the 320 bar allow for settling of the injectors and will end up in the 310 to 315 bar range and optimal. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[pepsi71ocean]

10 hours ago, trreed said:

Me78569 has done plenty of testing at 6000’ of elevation to determine the quadzilla, 7x0.010 and HX35 combination. It will be plenty sufficient at @Marcus2000monster‘s 3000’ for daily and towing duties. 

My injectors are popped at 305 bar at 5300’ (for reference) and are fine on smoke levels with the quadzilla. 

 

Yes but this is assuming that he will get a Quadzilla.  I think that it depends on what he's towing as well.

 

2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

I realize this as well. I'm not after HP alone. 

 

 

This why I want to do my own experimentation to see the effects of pop pressure for daily driver applications and MPG goals more so than HP/TQ goals. I'm willing to sacrifice some HP/TQ for the longevity of the injectors and MPG performance. Like another brand of injector, I was given I refuse to install because the builder didn't want to provide full details of the injector. Nope, not happening.  

 

I already know that anything set for 305 bar or 300 bar I can promise the injectors will not make it a full 100k miles and be getting pissy and MPG dropping out. Morning white smoke as well. I'm tired of all the builders only thinking priority is HP/TQ. I want longevity and MPG performance. Even smoke control of the 320 bar is awesome very easy to clean up. Once I get done with my MPG tune getting it close I'll build a performance tune going all out power. 

 

Like my 7 x 0.0085 @ 305 bar didn't even make the full 100k miles. MPG on my last few tanks are down to 16 to 17 MPG. These are only 2 years old. The spray quality is shot. The beginning was good strong 20 and 21 MPG number and faded over time. Just got to remember 293 bar is the bottom end of the quality spray. This is why I jumped to the 320 bar allow for settling of the injectors and will end up in the 310 to 315 bar range and optimal. 

 

Did you get the old ones popped for curiosity?

 

2 hours ago, trreed said:

Mine are designed for a completely different end goal than yours are.

Also, this particular builder would not listen if you wanted a different pop pressure. His testing gave him a pretty good idea on what pressures and pintle lift to use to achieve the horsepower goals. 

 

For me setting the pop to 322 bar was well worth it in terms of smoke spool up control. with my 100's and Smarty. Not to mention that mine were at 280bar when I pulled them to get popped.

[Mopar1973Man]

Not yet. Laying on the shop bench.

[Marcus2000monster]

19 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

 

Yes but this is assuming that he will get a Quadzilla.  I think that it depends on what he's towing as well.

 

 

Did you get the old ones popped for curiosity?

 

 

For me setting the pop to 322 bar was well worth it in terms of smoke spool up control. with my 100's and Smarty. Not to mention that mine were at 280bar when I pulled them to get popped.

You must have missed the earlier posts. I ordered a quad. My problem is I ant afford injectors to right now and I just have the quad first to get bigger injectors. 

I’m considering purchasing a pop tester if I can find one for a decent price. Can someone point me to one? This pop pressure theory interests me and I’d like to try to repop my own injectors and maybe others to if I can succeed. 

[pepsi71ocean]

29 minutes ago, Marcus2000monster said:

You must have missed the earlier posts. I ordered a quad. My problem is I ant afford injectors to right now and I just have the quad first to get bigger injectors. 

I’m considering purchasing a pop tester if I can find one for a decent price. Can someone point me to one? This pop pressure theory interests me and I’d like to try to repop my own injectors and maybe others to if I can succeed. 

 

Yes I did. I'd keep the 75's and see what kind of timing you need to run like Mike was dealing with. That may give you an idea on what your pop pressure is.

As for me your better off either sending them to DAP, or finding a shop. I've heard that checking pop is one thing, ordering shims for them is a different story.  I believe for me it was $110 to get my injectors popped and reset from DAP.

[Marcus2000monster]

33 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

 

Yes I did. I'd keep the 75's and see what kind of timing you need to run like Mike was dealing with. That may give you an idea on what your pop pressure is.

As for me your better off either sending them to DAP, or finding a shop. I've heard that checking pop is one thing, ordering shims for them is a different story.  I believe for me it was $110 to get my injectors popped and reset from DAP.

I’ve gotten two quotes from dap and they said 180$ not sure why they charging me more than you?

[Mopar1973Man]

Some tech stuff learned. 

 

With higher pop pressures like I'm running 320 bar you need to retard timing, not advance it. Current running 13, 17, 21, 25 for timing. Already hit 19 MPG and still rising. Cruise timing is +2. My cruise EGT's are really low like 55 MPH I float 400°F to 500°F. At 65 MPH its just below 600°F. Engine load is below 20% most times. Idle is 13% engine load. Max boost I've seen so far with this and even tripped my high boost light was 50 PSI. The boost light is set for 45 PSI.

 

@Dieselfuture quoted 182% MPG offset. This will be incorrect for me and way too high. I'm closer to 140% still. Gotta get a few tanks a fuel to get the actual offset number correct.

 

Low pop pressure injectors will idle way low in engine load my previous 7 x 0.0085 injectors are idling engine load of about 5%. ECM was trying to cut fuel to keep RPM at 800 RPM. Where high pop pressure will idle higher than typical where the 320 bar is 13%. Now the ECM is adding fuel to overcome the higher pop pressure. Make a for sure bet on detecting injector pop pressure by engine load. 

 

Higher pop pressure can possibly create a lope to the idle. In my case is only during my coast to a stop where the VP44 typically holds the idle up slightly this period my setup has a "purring lope" and when I come to stop it idles smooth as glass right at 800 RPM. No launching or stalling issues. Very manageable, kind of cool sounding coming to stop in traffic.

 

Power wise you must be very careful and manage your power carefully. This is no joke. 7 x 0.010 @ 320 Bar and 245/75 R16 tires is really mean combo. Even with my CANBus starting at 75% to a max of 120% not even using the last 30%. Now my wiretap is set for the bottom at 1,200us. This is a crazy amount of power the only gear that I can lay it on is 5th gear. All other gears you have to baby the throttle other than that the tires will spin. Even on dry asphalt or concrete road surface it can and will spin loose when the boost jumps suddenly. You can use the power level to split up the wiretap more or drop to level 3 and run strictly CANBus only. 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[trreed]

Wait. You have wiretap on all the time?  Why?

[Mopar1973Man]

14 minutes ago, trreed said:

Wait. You have wiretap on all the time?  Why?

 

Still playing.  Guilty as charged... 

 

 

[kzimmer]

42 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

With higher pop pressures like I'm running 320 bar you need to retard timing, not advance it.

 

Interesting find. One would think that increasing pop pressure would delay the start of the injection event, requiring an advancement. However, maybe the difference, or gap, between pop pressure and leak-down pressure becomes smaller. This might effectively "shorten" the time, (duration) it takes to inject x amount of fuel, ending the event early, requiring some retarding. Thoughts?

 

To add, perhaps this start vs end of injection timing relationship changes based on the amount of fuel is being injected via the 0 - 4095 canbus message.

Edited February 3, 2019 by kzimmer

[Mopar1973Man]

First tank used my old tune from the 7 x 0.0085 injectors drop to mere 15 MPG. Then after stiff retarding now hit 19 MPG. 

 

The older 17 to 18 MPG was with the old 7 x 0.0085 injectors cranked up to about 21 to 22 degrees cruise timing to reach that much. Below 20 degrees it sunk into the 16 to 17 MPG range.

 

20 minutes ago, kzimmer said:

 

Interesting find. One would think that increasing pop pressure would delay the start of the injection event, requiring an advancement. However, maybe the difference, or gap, between pop pressure and leak-down pressure becomes smaller. This might effectively "shorten" the time, (duration) it takes to inject x amount of fuel, ending the event early, requiring some retarding. Thoughts?

 

What I'm figuring out the injection even is still very close to correct timing. But the fuel atomization is finer and easier to ignite vs. low pop pressure that creates bigger droplets and requires more timing to burn all the fuel. Larger the droplets the more timing is required. Now with the higher pop pressure I had to retard because of negative torque. I was way high to keep the old injectors running at least high teens (21 to 22 dregrees). Now I'm only running more retarded (18 degrees) and managed to grab 19 MPG on the last tank. The first tank of the 7 x 0.010 I had left my old tune from the 7 x 0.0085 and it rattled excessively and power wasn't good at all.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[pepsi71ocean]

3 hours ago, kzimmer said:

 

Interesting find. One would think that increasing pop pressure would delay the start of the injection event, requiring an advancement. However, maybe the difference, or gap, between pop pressure and leak-down pressure becomes smaller. This might effectively "shorten" the time, (duration) it takes to inject x amount of fuel, ending the event early, requiring some retarding. Thoughts?

 

To add, perhaps this start vs end of injection timing relationship changes based on the amount of fuel is being injected via the 0 - 4095 canbus message.

 

Believe it or no this was my theory I had with raising he pop pressure of my injectors for my smarty. However, in this case we were hoping that raising tthe pop pressure would indeed help with my tuning on the smarty.

 

@Mopar1973Man Do you find that your retarding the timing beyond the OEM timing? Similarly to how we were discussing the idea behind raising the pop pressure to help with the smarty and smoke/spool control?

Edited February 3, 2019 by pepsi71ocean