'00 24v Cummins - What tuner to get?

[LifeRunner]

First forum post, hey y'all! 

So I'm looking into getting a new tuner for my Cummins, but it's quite the jungle out there, I've come to find. 

I see the guys over at PowerDriven Diesel use the Quadzilla Adrenaline tuners, and I kinda trust that lot with all the R&D they put in these engines, but would it be the right tuner for me, is the question?

I'm not looking for a tuner that'll supply me with a million horsepower and enough torque to rotate the earth backwards if I launch it too hard in 4WD, but something that'll add around 100-150hp. 

Having that said, I already have a Smarty S03, and I read elsewhere on this forum that it fuels weirdly, requesting 100% fuelling at 40-50% throttle, which sparked my interest so I went over to a mate, ran off with his datalogger and had a look, and lo and behold, it fuels really aggressively. No wonder it feels like you have LOADS of low end and then some, all while just lugging and flooding the turbo.

I don't feel like the Smarty is what I want, I want a bit more grunt than the Smarty can provide and am open to suggestions.

 

That said, I'm also unsure of how much power my truck produces, the previous owner handed over receipts for everything he'd done to it.

It's a 2000 Dodge Ram 2500 Sport, with the 24v 5.9 Cummins and the dreaded VP44, luckily that's nearly brand new, so there's that.

It has 100hp BD Diesel Injectors, PN 1075823

BD Diesel SuperB Single Turbo Kit, PN 1045220

AirDog Raptor 150 lift pump

Uprated billet single disk converter

47RE with shiftkit, rebuilt not too long ago with Alto "Red Eagle" friction bands and clutches.

Running it at the moment on the Smarty S03 SW#5 with some more sensible Revo settings.

Anyone willing to estimate the power output of this thing? I'd reckon closer to 300hp, but who knows. 

 

I'm also curious what they mean when advertising injectors as "+100hp" injectors, because surely, just swapping injectors won't add power? Unless you compensate with more air and fuel delivery?

[Evan]

How much boost pressure are you pushing.

Sounds like a fun truck

I to want the squad over the smarty after seeing everything moparman can do with his.

 

My trucks almost the same as yours unfortunately I'm still running the stock hy35.

 

With that turbo and those injectors I'd guess that you've broke over 300 if the s03 boost fools.  If it doesnt boost fool I say 280ish 50hp over stock. 

 

Factory computer defuel st 21lbs of boost. 

[dripley]

If I was buying one today it would be the the quad. It seems to be most versatile out there.

[Mopar1973Man]

Finding out there are people out there that want simple push button tuner. Keep in mind these exist out there but require that you start with stock fuel injectors and no bigger than about +50 HP tops. Like the Edge Juice, Edge Comp Edge EZ, and Smarty S-03, etc. Thes are all good tuners for stock trucks but you can never upgrade to bigger injectors without smoke or EGT's issues. 

 

Now the Smarty Touch ($1,700 full kit) and the Quadzilla Adrenaline ($675) are the only two tuners for the 24V trucks that allow for wider range of injectors and more precise tuning for your driving conditions. Full fuel and timing control of the injection pump. The Quadzilla shines above them all being you have full defuel limits you can set for protection. Then turbo cooldown that Smarty touch is missing and also no external gauges like fuel pressure are included with Smarty Touch. Remember the Smarty Touch is still just an Smarty S-03 tuner. You need all the other stuff like the Dongle, ComMod plug for programming on the fly, Smarty does not include the pyrometer, etc.

Now for the 3rd Gen and above I would say Smarty Touch or MM3 tuner for sure. For the 2nd Gen 24V it strictly a Quadzilla thing. 

 

If you not willing to take the time to tune the Quadzilla I'm going to suggest not to bother. It's not a plug and an instant play tuner. You can't just make a tune perfect in mere minutes. Takes lots of driving time and working with different conditions and weather. Then you can get a good tune. Like Economy tune took me a good month of testing and tweaking to get above 20 MPG with 7 x 0.010 injectors at 320 bar. Which is well worth it, being the truck produces huge power on demand and still pass a fuel station. 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[LifeRunner]

9 minutes ago, Evan said:

How much boost pressure are you pushing.

Sounds like a fun truck

I to want the squad over the smarty after seeing everything moparman can do with his.

 

My trucks almost the same as yours unfortunately I'm still running the stock hy35.

 

With that turbo and those injectors I'd guess that you've broke over 300 if the s03 boost fools.  If it doesnt boost fool I say 280ish 50hp over stock. 

 

Factory computer defuel st 21lbs of boost. 

Coming from Europe, I'll have to break out the conversion units here! 

Only 21lbs though? That ain't gonna do it, even my old 80s diesel Merc would do better than that. 

Sad to say, nobody's thought of adding any instruments, no EGT gauge, no boost gauge, no trans temp. I've ordered some fancy-pants AEM gauges that'll look good in my A-Pillar. 

I feel like a bit of an idiot here, didn't check the boost graph when I put logging on it, all I wanted to know if this Smarty fuel delivery madness was true and how it reacted to different settings, didn't even think to check the boost graph in fact

I'd assume it does boost fooling, however.

3 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Finding out there are people out there that want simple push button tuner. Keep in mind these exist out there but require that you start with stock fuel injectors and no bigger than about +50 HP tops. Like the Edge Juice, Edge Comp Edge EZ, and Smarty S-03, etc. Thes are all good tuners for stock trucks but you can never upgrade to bigger injectors without smoke or EGT's issues. 

 

Now the Smarty Touch ($1,700 full kit) and the Quadzilla Adrenaline ($675) are the only two tuners for the 24V trucks that allow for wider range of injectors and more precise tuning for your driving conditions. Full fuel and timing control of the injection pump. The Quadzilla shines above them all being you have full defuel limits you can set for protection. Then turbo cooldown that Smarty touch is missing and also no external gauges like fuel pressure are included with Smarty Touch. Remember the Smarty Touch is still just an Smarty S-03 tuner. You need all the other stuff like the Dongle, ComMod plug for programming on the fly, Smarty does not include the pyrometer, etc.

Now for the 3rd Gen and above I would say Smarty Touch or MM3 tuner for sure. For the 2nd Gen 24V it strictly a Quadzilla thing. 

 

If you not willing to take the time to tune the Quadzilla I'm going to suggest not to bother. It's not a plug and an instant play tuner. You can't just make a tune perfect in mere minutes. Takes lots of driving time and working with different conditions and weather. Then you can get a good tune. Like Economy tune took me a good month of testing and tweaking to get above 20 MPG with 7 x 0.010 injectors at 320 bar. Which is well worth it, being the truck produces huge power on demand and still pass a fuel station. 

I was leaning towards the Quadzilla, as it's my impression that any PnP tuner won't really work well with bigger injectors without complications, so to speak. 

 

I'll have no issue perfecting a tune, at least if there's a decent basemap in there first, which there seems to be? I've looked around on their website and there seems to be a LOT of different tunings to choose from.

[Mopar1973Man]

Smarty S-03 and Smarty Touch both do boost fooler internal on there programming. But you'll only reach about 30-32 PSI at most. Remember Smarty S-03 and Smarty touch are only CANBus tuners. They both must play by the rules of the ECM. Hence why both tuners are typically limited to 60 HP tops. There are some claims that Smarty Touch can reach 100 HP. Still rather low for the price being Edge Comp and Edge Juice have reached the 120 HP mark long ago. Quadzilla at 180 HP.

[Evan]

So s03 would benefit from running a boost fooler

 

I'm not 100% sure what I get for fuel mileage right now

 

Superchips on max (whatever that is) 7x09, defueiling at 21.

I can drive from mtn home to Grant's pass Oregon 670miles without stopping.

 

 

I'm getting 35 sometimes 38psi with 7x09 injectors, boost fooler, and cheap superchips on max.

 

Boost fooler really woke it up, no more defueiling 

[Mopar1973Man]

4 minutes ago, Evan said:

So s03 would benefit from running a boost fooler

 

Correction... Any tuner will have a boost fooler. Just remember you extremely limited on what you can do.

 

5 minutes ago, Evan said:

I'm not 100% sure what I get for fuel mileage right now

 

Here is the app I'm running and work awesome for tracking MPG data and maintenance data. 

https://simplyauto.app/

 

 

6 minutes ago, Evan said:

Superchips on max (whatever that is) 7x09, defueiling at 21.

I can drive from mtn home to Grant's pass Oregon 670miles without stopping.

2

 

Hear nor there I'm sorry to say. We need to see long term data. Like here is 3 years of fuel log data and you can see when I was towing trailers. Then see when injectors started to fall low on pop pressure. Good fuel logs are critical to know if you are doing the right thing or not.

 

[LifeRunner]

3 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Smarty S-03 and Smarty Touch both do boost fooler internal on there programming. But you'll only reach about 30-32 PSI at most. Remember Smarty S-03 and Smarty touch are only CANBus tuners. They both must play by the rules of the ECM. Hence why both tuners are typically limited to 60 HP tops. There are some claims that Smarty Touch can reach 100 HP. Still rather low for the price being Edge Comp and Edge Juice have reached the 120 HP mark long ago. Quadzilla at 180 HP.

Yeah, they're not quite "there"

The Quadzilla and Edge tuners are to be considered pretty much as "piggyback" ECM/ECU's? 

Without reading too much into it, I gather that you have to tap a few wires with both to get the desired effects from that kind of tuner.

I'd love to get somewhere around 350hp out of this thing, not wanting to take it too far because reliability, which it seems a Quad would do easily.

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, LifeRunner said:

The Quadzilla and Edge tuners are to be considered pretty much as "piggyback" ECM/ECU's? 

 

Yeah, that is close enough. Basically, the Edge and Quadzilla listen to the CANBus data and then when its time to add more power the tuner now intercepts the message rewrites the data with the tune value and then set the priority bit to override the last command. 

 

Smarty S-03 or Smarty Touch completely rewrite the entire fuel timing tables from the ground up with custom information. This comes at a price there is no cooldown timer. No warmup mode lockout. No defuel limits. High idle is the ECM high idle controlled by IAT temperature. There is some adjustment of fuel and timing but extremely limited for the 24V trucks. Way different on CR engine where the Smarty Touch is 210 HP tuner on the 24V trucks is just a mere 60 HP tuner. 

 

1 hour ago, LifeRunner said:

I'd love to get somewhere around 350hp out of this thing, not wanting to take it too far because reliability, which it seems a Quad would do easily.

 

Quadzilla on stock injectors would be able to reach that no problem. It will take some tune work to get that but it can do it. As for reliability and longevity speak, I'm currently at 500 HP roughly and closing in on 400k miles. I've made a few upgrades to reach this but nothing crazy. Injectors, Quadzilla, Used HX35/40 turbo, ARP 425 Head Studs, etc. 

[Dparr25]

5 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Finding out there are people out there that want simple push button tuner. Keep in mind these exist out there but require that you start with stock fuel injectors and no bigger than about +50 HP tops. Like the Edge Juice, Edge Comp Edge EZ, and Smarty S-03, etc. Thes are all good tuners for stock trucks but you can never upgrade to bigger injectors without smoke or EGT's issues. 

 

Now the Smarty Touch ($1,700 full kit) and the Quadzilla Adrenaline ($675) are the only two tuners for the 24V trucks that allow for wider range of injectors and more precise tuning for your driving conditions. Full fuel and timing control of the injection pump. The Quadzilla shines above them all being you have full defuel limits you can set for protection. Then turbo cooldown that Smarty touch is missing and also no external gauges like fuel pressure are included with Smarty Touch. Remember the Smarty Touch is still just an Smarty S-03 tuner. You need all the other stuff like the Dongle, ComMod plug for programming on the fly, Smarty does not include the pyrometer, etc.

Now for the 3rd Gen and above I would say Smarty Touch or MM3 tuner for sure. For the 2nd Gen 24V it strictly a Quadzilla thing. 

 

If you not willing to take the time to tune the Quadzilla I'm going to suggest not to bother. It's not a plug and an instant play tuner. You can't just make a tune perfect in mere minutes. Takes lots of driving time and working with different conditions and weather. Then you can get a good tune. Like Economy tune took me a good month of testing and tweaking to get above 20 MPG with 7 x 0.010 injectors at 320 bar. Which is well worth it, being the truck produces huge power on demand and still pass a fuel station. 

 

[dripley]

I you were really getting that kind of milage you be going a 1000 miles on a tank.  

[Mopar1973Man]

That can be explained too. The overhead console or as well all call it the overhead idiot. First of ECM does not produce a GPH flow rate figure on the ECM. This has to be calculated from boost pressure and a few other things. Now with a tuner and larger injectors, the commanded duration is much less giving the illusion of being higher MPG but actually, the flow amount is the same as it was before. Like my, Quadzilla is using a 47% offset to correct for 7 x 0.010 @ 320 bar injectors. Using my last fuel log entry of 20.8 MPG now calculate the 47% offset would have shown 30.57 MPG on the overhead idiot. Now if you running oversized tires on the odometer is screwed up adding to the mess. 

 

Like for my setup, my idle engine load is about 11 to 12% then my cruise at 65 MPH is 19% engine load. This is way lower than the most stock truck that is up around 30% and 35% engine load for 65 MPH.

 

In my case, I've flashed the ABS computer to report the correct speed and mileage. Then the Quadzilla can compensate for the injector flow and show accurate data on MPG. Like my last tank, I was only off by 0.08 gallons between the pump and the Quadzilla.

 

You best off yanking that overhead idiot out and putting the plastic plug up there. 99% of the data given is junk.

 

At least this data is dead on...

Edited April 8, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[Dparr25]

I put more timing in the tune but hey before the best I’ve ever got out of the dummy gauge I guess u call it was usually 19 20 and a average of around 17 I guess I thought it was cool sorry for posting still trying to figure out how to adjust tuning 

[Mopar1973Man]

Not to take the wind from your sails is not my intention but... There was actually a note long ago back in the 98.5 that Dealers were aware of tuners present on the vehicle just by check the overhead computer and see what is displayed. This was an instant way for the dealer to turn around and void the warranty on the truck because there is a tuner present. Even if you were using a Smarty S-03 that clams to no leave a footprint in the ECM but it leaves the clues on the overhead computer. 

[Me78569]

lol I used to get 38-40 mpg on the overhead when I was running 7 x .012's  

 

really the overhead is about as simple as "x" tps% at 55 mph = 'X" mpg

[Dparr25]

no mine is a 2002 HO  no smarty just quadzilla  iQuad v2 with 125 sac injectors with 61mm hx40 on top and 75 mm  s475 on the bottom I overhauled it and put arp rod bolts main studs and head studs and upgraded the valve springs since it has over 60 psi boost mainly did compounds for towing but I can tell it’s been getting a lot better mileage but I haven’t done it on paper yet didn’t get a chance too yet 

[LifeRunner]

2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Yeah, that is close enough. Basically, the Edge and Quadzilla listen to the CANBus data and then when its time to add more power the tuner now intercepts the message rewrites the data with the tune value and then set the priority bit to override the last command. 

 

Smarty S-03 or Smarty Touch completely rewrite the entire fuel timing tables from the ground up with custom information. This comes at a price there is no cooldown timer. No warmup mode lockout. No defuel limits. High idle is the ECM high idle controlled by IAT temperature. There is some adjustment of fuel and timing but extremely limited for the 24V trucks. Way different on CR engine where the Smarty Touch is 210 HP tuner on the 24V trucks is just a mere 60 HP tuner. 

 

 

Quadzilla on stock injectors would be able to reach that no problem. It will take some tune work to get that but it can do it. As for reliability and longevity speak, I'm currently at 500 HP roughly and closing in on 400k miles. I've made a few upgrades to reach this but nothing crazy. Injectors, Quadzilla, Used HX35/40 turbo, ARP 425 Head Studs, etc. 

I'm thinking about the drivetrain, specifically the gearbox and converter though, in terms of reliability. 

 

It's decided, anyway, I'm going for a Quad. 

While we're on the subject of tuning and various performance parts, what do you guys think about the ever so loved Banks High Ram and Monster Ram intake elbows? 

I've seen a lot of youtubers swearing by them and whatever, but I'm just sat here shaking my head looking at the pricing and the incredible description Banks have produced for this bit of cast aluminium or whatever it is. 

 

It looks cool, yes, and I want one, I'll admit that, but only because my truck is red and it'll look good whenever I pop the hood, I can't imagine in my wildest dreams that it'll actually produce a noticeable difference in power or response

[dripley]

@Dparr25 dont sweat it man, we have had many discussions about the lie-o-meter hear in the past. Just wanted to be sure you knew it. Some folks have moved thru here swearing that is the correct mileage. Sounds like you know how use a calculator.

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, LifeRunner said:

what do you guys think about the ever so loved Banks High Ram and Monster Ram intake elbows? 

 

 

Not needed. The stock intake is fine for at least 500 HP (or possibly more). When you open my hood all you see that is different from stock is the BHAF. The rest of the engine looks stock.

 

I want to mention that for daily driver trucks optimal IAT temperature is 100°F to 140°F below about 80°F there is a pretty good loss of MPG. Cold air actually hurts MPG's. Being I live up here in central Idaho and see winter temps down as low as -40°F.

 

As for exhaust don't bother with 5-inch exhaust unless your planning on 600 HP and above. 4-inch exhaust is OK but no real measurable difference between the stock 3 inch straight piped or 4-inch muffled. The only thing I don't like is the added drone on grades sucks. 

 

For now, I suggest the Quadzilla and learn how to tune then you can start adding bigger injectors and more power safely once you understand your tuner. 

 

I would suggest that you contact @Dynamic in the future and talk to him about transmission upgrades to hold the amount of flywheel power you plan on. Dynamic is our sites transmission guru. Great guy!