Tuning help on 02 HO 6 speed 6x.013 67/67 HE351 178/208 cam truck, tuning questions, power level for CAN, app/truck version ?'s

[rocketman123]

***I see this may not be posted in the correct subforum, probably should be in the Quadzilla vendor area but not sure how to delete and move it, mods?***

 

Hello all,

 

I've been fiddling with tuning on my truck ever since I did the initial build with DDP 150s and a stage 1 GT3782R turbo I got cheap on eBay and fabbed into the truck. Loved the turbo sound but blew it up recently as it was on borrowed time at 40psi with 150s. I just did another round of work on it (build list below) and am at a loss on where to start with tuning as none of the tunes in the tune library run well at all on the truck.

 

I've read and reread a ton of posts on tuning as well as all the tuning write-ups and articles and have made some headway in the smoke cleanliness department, but the vast majority of tunes and posts about the timing aspect are on SO trucks from what I can see. Running timing that works on standard output trucks on my high output truck causes major bucking. In terms of CAN Bus fueling, I've determined that starting out around 63-66% gives me a smoke free low psi starting point, but with the base timing map and timing modifiers not correct (I assume), I would imagine even this would probably change once everything else is closer.

 

Anybody have a base tune that might be a decent place to start on my truck with HO lower timing so I can at least get some decent data logs?

 

As it stands, I can't really go full throttle because my current tune bucks pretty hard past 3/4 throttle on PL03 (on a scale starting at PL00) . RPM Timing Max is set at 16, 18, 22, 24, 26, max toad timing offset 2, low psi timing reduct 2, timing reduct scaling 100, light throttle timing adv 3, light throttle load limit % 20. For the CAN Bus fueling map a couple days ago I added the map from Me78569's 7x.012vgt injector tune 1.0.1 which is pretty clean up to about 8psi but a bit smoky above that. Previously I was running a map that started at 61 and bumped up 2% every psi ending on 107. It was smokier at low boost than the above map that starts at 66 which I assume is because I had to use more throttle to get the truck moving with the lower initial psi%. The truck would also die if I let the clutch out too hard during warmup mode but was ok once warmup mode was off. (I don't add throttle when releasing the clutch since the clutch is on or off no slip and shudders super hard and the truck ends up bucking like a bucking bronco when the ECM fights with the Quad for low end fueling if I add throttle when releasing unless there's zero heat in the clutch fresh cold start.)

 

Couple other questions: 

-- I just saw in a recent post where Quadzilla and M73M were talking about a V2 2.8.5 version update. My app version (android) says 1.9.41 in the app settings. Is the 2.8.5 number referring to the version of the app or something else? If so, apparently I need to download the app from this forum and install it third party app style then? because the app on my phone is fully updated according to Google Play Store (the most recent version, 1.9.41, was uploaded on March 12, 2018 to the Play Store).

 

-- Also, for vehicle selection I'm running the V2 Quadzilla Only Version 3.94. A friend of mine sent me his UCC dyno tune to try out a few weeks ago when I first was trying to figure the tuning all out and this 3.94 vehicle selection is what his tune was under when I imported the tune into the app so I assumed this was the best one to run as he was working directly with Quadzilla ironing the tuning out for UCC last year. That was also the tune that led me to believe my truck did not like big timing as that tune has a LOT of timing for the huge sticks and Stage 2 Monster pump he was running and the truck was almost undriveable past 1/4 throttle even on PL03.

 

 

My build is as follows:

- 380k mile truck, original, nothing rebuilt on it

- Engine wear is nearly non-existent, all main/rod/cam bearings,cylinder bores, pistons, etc look great for mileage (pulled engine when I first bought it to reseal and inspect it all, oil analysis on all oil based fluids came back fine for mileage, no excessive wear, strictly maintained vehicle purchased from original owner, 1 foot thick of receipts)

- OE 350k mile HO injection pump (original died and was replaced under warranty at 30k)

- 350k mile 2005 FASS 95 Red with all updates (installed with IP replacement), I sumped the tank, bowl delete -8AN direct feed to IP with long 90 radius, lift pump will be upgraded to AirDog II-4G 165 soon

- DAP "New Bosch Bodied" 305 Bar single large feed 6x.013" sticks

- Bosch cross tubes with edge filters removed, OE internal diamater

- Hamilton Cams 178/208 cam, Enterprise Engine brass billet thrust plate, valve lash at .010" intake, .020" exhaust

- Hamilton HD Pushrods

- Hamilton 103# springs, tool steel retainers

- Had the valve spring seats cut for 3rd gen valve stem seals

- Head has been decked .006" to get it flat (I also measured all valve face depths and piston protrusions if interested)

- OE PAI Industries head gasket, measures .063-.064" uncompressed IIRC (advertised as OE style and thickness, better quality and stickiness than the Cummins ones I've run recently IMO)

- I did a somewhat decent Dave's Head Porting Extravaganza Stage 2 port on the exhaust ports and somewhere between 1 and 2 on the intake ports (the casting core drop on my head was WAY worse than the pics in his write-up so took it easy on the intake ports with fear of blowing through a coolant jacket)

- O-ringed the block with my Isky Groove-Matic, SCE stainless wire (doing in-chassis SUCKS)

- ARP 425s, bottom-tapped and cleaned all holes

- Fluidampr, drilled and pinned to crank

- Fleece coolant bypass kit, Shell Rotella EG-1 ELC

- Crazy Carl's intake plenum

- Turbo Lab of America "67/67 HE351 builder kit" with 67/88 7x7 compressor, 76/67 10 blade turbine, 360 journal and compressor cover boost seal cut into bearing housing. I added step gap rings, WPC'd everything, Midwest turbo balanced, ported the wastegate a ton, Savage Fab spring gate at 50psi  (EBP sensor soon arriving to verify drive pressure), Cerakote C-7600Q coating on bearing housing (outside) and exhaust housing (inside and out)

- eBay special "high flow" intercooler we had laying around

- Turbosmart Big Bubba Sleeper Black BOV, on hot side CAC tube at compressor outlet

- eBay special FX Stage 4 full ceramic single disc "585hp" rated (has been holding so far), going to either a Haisley Street Drag or Street Puller dual disc setup soon

- Polybushings.com race hardness engine mount inserts

- MAP, IAT, CMP, Coolant temp replaced with new Cummins sensors, new t-stat, water pump, etc

 

Other stuff:

- NV5600: Cool-Master trans coolers and filters, Amsoil Synchromesh 1qt over fill (+2qts for coolers), BD Diesel short throw shift kit, 1.5lb weighted shift ball

- Front end: DOR bent, poly-bushed, front control arms, DOR track bar kit, Mopar 08.5+T-Style linkage, 3rd Gen Thuren Fab valved King steering damper, RedHead gear, sector shaft brace, Moog bj's, Spicer Life aj's, SKF unit bearings, Borgeson high flow power steering pump

- Rest of truck: DOR bent traction bars w/ Johnny Joints w/ custom mounts (still in battle with DOR over a bunch of severely slow order fulfillment and bad part fitment issues), Bilstein 5100 shocks, 3rd gen napa ultra premium rotors, hawk LTS pads, 3rd Gen calipers/brackets, reamed original brake lines, Ravenol DOT 5.1 fluid, radiator, heater core, etc etc and a bunch of other visual/interior stuff not relevant to performance

 

 

Sorry for such a long post. I've put a massive amount of time and money into this truck and not being able to actually see what it can do is killing me so want to get all info on the table for the most accurate picture as well as to help anyone in the future with anything similar.

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

Edited April 25, 2019 by rocketman123
answered a couple of my own questions

[Dieselfuture]

Sounds like quite the truck. 

3 hours ago, rocketman123 said:

RPM Timing Max is set at 16, 18, 22, 24, 26, max 

Seems low, especially on top end.

 

3 hours ago, rocketman123 said:

I just saw in a recent post where Quadzilla and M73M were talking about a V2 2.8.5 version update. My app version (android) says 1.9.41 in the app settings. Is the 2.8.5 number referring to the version of the app or something else? 

1 9 41 is the phone app, 2 8 5 latest software for Quadzilla box

 

3 hours ago, rocketman123 said:

Also, for vehicle selection I'm running the V2 Quadzilla Only Version 3.94

Change it to v2 dodge 1998 2002

 

3 hours ago, rocketman123 said:

Had the valve spring seats cut for 3rd gen valve stem seals

 

3 hours ago, rocketman123 said:

Turbo Lab of America

How do you like them, heard some rumors that they didn't know what they were doing. Maybe got better. 

[kzimmer]

4 hours ago, rocketman123 said:

RPM Timing Max is set at 16, 18, 22, 24, 26

 

36 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

Seems low, especially on top end.

 

This might not be considered low if it's an HO VP. Might actually be a little high @ 1500, not sure though.

[Mopar1973Man]

He's only running a +2 spread. Should be a +3 spread for starting point. 

 

16, 19, 22, 25, 26

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, kzimmer said:

 

 

This might not be considered low if it's an HO VP. Might actually be a little high @ 1500, not sure though.

I have a HO pump, nothing fancy like hot rod. I have my timing at 29 for max, seems to run fine. I figured if he's going balls all out on top end, he needs timing. Sounds like edge products max timing out early in the map and stay in 30s rest of the way.  

[Me78569]

Ditch the DDP injectors.  I was running 7 x .012's with a starting point of ~%70 and %100 smoke free at high altitude.  

 

DDP injectors are too dirty by nature to try and clean up.  We have seen it no less than 10 times now.  

[Mopar1973Man]

Part of that problem I would say is injector builders looking for max flow and pop the injector lower to increase flow rates. Makes for dirty injectors.

[Me78569]

DDP uses the marine spray angle as well.    fuel in the wrong spot at the wrong time.  

 

 

The result is you have to pull a HUGE amount of fuel in an effort to clean it up, but then your power curve is garabge.  Even budget injectors like DAP will let you run ~%20 more fuel off idle with the same smoke output.   that's a big difference in how the tune works.

[rocketman123]

9 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

Sounds like quite the truck. 

Seems low, especially on top end.

 

1 9 41 is the phone app, 2 8 5 latest software for Quadzilla box

 

Change it to v2 dodge 1998 2002

 

 

How do you like them, heard some rumors that they didn't know what they were doing. Maybe got better. 

 

Is the software built into the iquad app? Or is there a writeup on how to check which software is on there and how to update it?

 

Ok I'll rewrite my current tune under that vehicle. What is the difference between that (2.7) vehicle selection and the 3.94 selection?

 

Ha yeah too much boost and drive pressure (I assume) kept lifting the stem seals up and the retainers were beating the seals up and pouring oil down the guides. Big puff of blue on cold start, TONS of carbon packed in the ports and on the valve stems. Part of the reason I ported the head was just to clean the carbon out of it. Took about 4 cans of Easy Off oven cleaner initially then carbides to cut the rest of it before I could even get to bare metal

 

I've seen vids of their early bad machine work, but I took a gamble. I bought the builder kit (unassembled) to verify fitment before assembly and everything measured ok so looks like they have it somewhat ironed out now. Their box packaging techniques on the other hand....WOW. They use the same overseas parts that everybody else does that sells individual parts and completes on ebay, so take that as you want, but the castings are way cleaner and better visually than the Holset stuff  figured it should be ok. Did my usual bulletproofing of various components in it just to make sure everything will live a long life. Only thing I didn't like was the exhaust housing supplier they use doesn't drill the wastegate port out at ALL. It was literally 1/2" diameter, and the wastegate cover disk was easily 1/4" smaller diameter than a Holset unit, so not only way too small of port dia, but can't port the wastegate out as much as on a Holset casting (or another ebay supplier's housing I have a couple others from for a triple kit I'm building for this truck eventually) So far, this 67/67 HE351 I think will still have too small of exhaust housing for this power level as I can hit 50psi and 1250 degrees with zero pump tap on my fairly mild CAN Bus map. But again, may be just because my tune sucks

8 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

He's only running a +2 spread. Should be a +3 spread for starting point. 

 

16, 19, 22, 25, 26

Ok I'll try that and see what happens. Do the other timing modifier values look ok to start with?

 

max toad timing offset 2

low psi timing reduct 2

timing reduct scaling 100

light throttle timing adv 3

light throttle load limit % 20

7 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

I have a HO pump, nothing fancy like hot rod. I have my timing at 29 for max, seems to run fine. I figured if he's going balls all out on top end, he needs timing. Sounds like edge products max timing out early in the map and stay in 30s rest of the way.  

Not sure how the timing is on the default Adrenaline V2 tune is compared to the Edge J w/ A, but I ran the default Adrenaline profile to see what happened and it bucks real bad as well. Just another tid bit of info

7 hours ago, Me78569 said:

Ditch the DDP injectors.  I was running 7 x .012's with a starting point of ~%70 and %100 smoke free at high altitude.  

 

DDP injectors are too dirty by nature to try and clean up.  We have seen it no less than 10 times now.  

 

I'm running Diesel Auto Power (JKidd) 6x.013s. The DDP 150s I had in it before were as dirty as these 6x.013s are, so I could definitely see what you're talking about!

 

6 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Part of that problem I would say is injector builders looking for max flow and pop the injector lower to increase flow rates. Makes for dirty injectors.

 

These DAP 6x.013s do haze at idle hot. Idle rpm is dead nuts at 800 and I have about 15k on them so far so I assume they are probably still fairly close to 305 based on what I've read. I may end up pulling them apart and repopping them at 310 or 315 or something to clean them up a bit

[Me78569]

Sorry I read over that in the first post.  

I will have to read through again when I geta few minutes.

[rocketman123]

No worries, sounds good!

[Me78569]

White smoke when it bucks by chance?  I would think you would need more timing not less.

 

 

Do you have datalogs of the bucking?

[rocketman123]

No white smoke on bucking

 

I will add the new timing map from M73M above and switch vehicle selection from V2 Quadzilla Only (3.93) to  V2 Dodge 1998-2002 (2.7) and I'll post a log and let you know if it bucks. 

[Me78569]

Does it bucks at high rpm or high throttle?

Edited April 26, 2019 by Me78569

[Dieselfuture]

4 hours ago, rocketman123 said:

Is the software built into the iquad app? Or is there a writeup on how to check which software is on there and how to update it?

The app on the phone is so it can communicate to the quad box under the hood through Bluetooth or wifi depending on which one you chose, I prefer Bluetooth. The stuff in the phone is 1.9.41 This is the easy part.

 

To see what software is in the box under hood you need to install a driver so box can communicate to your computer. Here is @Me78569 write up on that.

Latest software is supposedly 2.8.5 I'm still using 2.8.41 I believe and have no issues with it. 

4 hours ago, rocketman123 said:

What is the difference between that (2.7) vehicle selection and the 3.94 selection?

I belive quadzilla only is used for software development and really should be removed from vehicle selection, it has extra features that if you don't know what you're doing will screw things up.

 

4 hours ago, rocketman123 said:

I've seen vids of their early bad machine work, but I took a gamble. I bought the builder kit (unassembled) to verify fitment before assembly and everything measured ok so looks like they have it somewhat ironed out now. Their box packaging techniques on the other hand....WOW. They use the same overseas parts that everybody else does that sells individual parts and completes on ebay, so take that as you want, but the castings are way cleaner and better visually than the Holset stuff  figured it should be ok

If you're talking about turbolab, I would check this place out. http://www.northamericanturbo.com

All made in USA and genuine holset parts. That's where I got my hybrid from.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Dieselfuture
Autocorrect

[rocketman123]

On 4/25/2019 at 6:16 PM, Me78569 said:

Does it bucks at high rpm or high throttle?

High throttle. I loaded @Mopar1973Man's timing recommendations into my current tune and it runs noticeably smoother. So looks like your guys' help is making progress already! Still has some "wobble" once boost hits at WOT. The CAN Bus curvefrom @Me78569's 7x,012vgt daily tune is pretty rich (smoky) so might go back to my previous more conservative map, but I noticed even that 7x.012 map is still only around 3600-3700 or so in terms of CAN Bus duration, so I'm still not even maxing out CAN Bus. I swapped exhaust housings to the one I have that has more total turbine nozzle area (turbine inlet slot cut wider), as I saw EGT was already at 1500 just on PL03, and also backed the spring gate down to between 40-45psi boost. Still high EGT, but truck runs a bit better already. Confirmed the 9cm2 exhaust housing, even with the much higher flow 76/67 10 blade turbine, is still too small for this much fuel, but should be able to clean up the CAN Bus curve and use wire tap to add power above that to a point. At least that's what I'm shooting for in the mean time while I finish compiling parts for the triple kit I'm building. Attached is a data log I recorded this evening after I finished the housing swap and reset the wastegate. At WOT it still had a bit of an oscillation, as if I'm on and off the throttle about 8-10% about 4 cycles per second, but it's noticeably better than it was. I'll write another tune in the V2 Dodge 1998-2002 (2.7) that has everything the same except uses my more conservative CAN Bus curve and see if it's the large 4% jumps between psi's that @Me78569 has in his CAN fueling curve I'm using that is causing it or not.

iQuad-2019-04-26-10.32.2161087575,88001904317.csv

Edited April 27, 2019 by rocketman123

[rocketman123]

I should also point out that I live in Central Oregon at an altitude of between 3600 and 3800ft. When messing with the tune builder excel program a while back initially, I noticed that adjusting the altitude variable to my general altitude vs the sea level default in the EZ Tune builder made a noticeable change in the CAN Bus curve

[rocketman123]

Ok long delay in posting, but made some decent headway in figuring the tuning out, I think. I will attach the tune I am running currently that also happened to be the tune with which I put down 655hp/1240tq at a local drag/dyno day on May 18th. The dyno seemed to be reading a bit low (30-40hp/100-150tq) based on a number of rigs with very well known setups that ran that day comparing to what trucks with same/similar builds are normally putting down. Possibly due to the higher altitude of the track, dyno not loading as well, etc. The high power trucks that had been dynoed multiple times before were relatively close to expected power on this dyno, albeit a bit low, so I assume my numbers were not a fluke. Most runs, including mine, were run in overdrive (6th, in my case) to help load the truck more effectively. The smoke output of my truck even at the top end was IMMENSE, suggesting I may be able to push the numbers even higher with more air and/or nitrous. I probably would've fogged the truck if I had a clutch that could've handled it, but somehow the 500hp ebay single ceramic clutch, fass 95G, and 380k engine/HO pump still allowed the truck to make well over 100hp above my expectations.

 

I will pull the CANBus fueling down and extend the ramp out to cut some smoke for daily use on this tune, but surprisingly, as long as I am somewhat easy with it, the truck is actually LESS smoky with this CANBus curve that starts at 100%, especially on light acceleration, than with my previous curve that started down at 68% @ 0psi. It drives much smoother as well, and feels noticeably quicker/more responsive in general with less smoke, and boost pressure is easily HALF that of the previous tune at any given point for the same perceived acceleration rate when driving normally (i.e.: average daily driving acceleration would produce ~10-15 psi boost, now 5-7 psi for the same and even quicker acceleration). The main thing between this tune and previous tune was the CANBus curve, with only minor timing adjustments if any, so I guess I could attribute the power/response increase to better atomization with a longer injection pulse? 

 

If anyone sees any glaring issues or places for improvement on this tune, especially in the timing department, I definitely am all ears and will test/datalog/respond with my findings. I wrote this tune for the dyno run and maxed CANBus command quickly, but I think it's too much fuel for the turbo on the bottom end because anything past 1/3 throttle from no boost actually spools the turbo slower than when rolling into it. It's also too smoky for the street past half throttle with no pump tap and does not clean up AT ALL even at 45psi, EGT's @ 1500+ on a hard pull, CANBus fuel only. NEED MORE AIR

 

 

First two dyno pulls were with the previous "street" tune that ended up at about 105% CANBus at 30+psi on the max tune level with fuel stretch at 1800ms and did 508/1080, but the dyno software had a hiccup and didn't record either of those runs. The last three were done with the below tune (albeit with pump tap starting at 25% and not 0%) at maximum tune level again with fuel stretch at 1800 ms. Only difference was maxing CANBus fueling command at around 138%. Last two runs I tried loading the truck at different RPMs, but didn't have much luck and everything was already heat soaked after the first two runs and getting progressively worse I'm sure (no fan in front of the truck). Pulls were done to around 3200 rpm when I felt the power nosing over, and the graphs suggested max power was made between 2700-2900 with over 500 available right when the turbo hit all the way to redline, torque hit max pretty much instantly down around 2200 and over 1000 at end of run. The dyno was on roll speed calc, so wheel speed and not rpm based, but just guessing based on when I started and ended the run (~2000-3200).

iQuad-Race-2019-05-30-02.03.568228413070918849844.json

Edited June 4, 2019 by rocketman123

[Mopar1973Man]

Impressive.