Crank, no start after replacing 2 CKP sensors- Fuel issue?

[Great work!]

The old saying a picture is worth a thousand words. Now that you can see what the tone wheel is and that it bolts to the crank you should re-check it through the hole before wrestling that oil pan out. It is very rare for the tone wheel to come off. Has the motor ever been out of the truck and rebuilt or messed around with? 

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, gsr46r said:

I've read you have to rotate the crankshaft to remove the tone wheel, so I wanted to make sure I know how to do it.

You can use alternator nut and rotate it with a socket and ratchet counterclockwise, I want to say 24mm, obviously serpentine belt has to be on.

[kzimmer]

If memory serves, I used 15/16, and I think it was a little too big. 24mm would probably still work I imagine. The alternator I have now is from a 2001 Durango so I'm not even sure haha.

[gsr46r]

Thank y'all. I'm not sure if the engine has ever been out.

 

Got the ECM back from cummins without an argument. The lady was nice and took the fee off. Will attempt all of the steps this weekend and put a dent in the project! Hoping the screws for the tone wheel aren't sheered.

[gsr46r]

Well, got it running!! It was the camshaft position sensor. Allow me to explain.

 

Idk what I spun the other night, but I believe it was the gear that the starter connects to. I was running on 4 hrs sleep and was rushing so the mechanic could pick up his son. I went back this morning to look at the tone wheel, and it wouldn't budge. I had my gf spin my crank, uh, i mean my trucks crank, using a 15/16 on the alternator. The tone wheel moved then and almost ate a screwdriver that I stuck through the CKP sensor's hole.

 

After an difficult battle, I removed and replaced the cam sensor. I reinstalled the intake horn, APPS, CKP sensor and starter. I tried to start the truck, and it didn't start. But, I noticed 200 RPM's. I got the check gauges light, so I connected jumper cables to my '05, and cranked it. After making the gasping sound, the truck fired up!

 

My issue must be an anomaly with 2000 cummins having both cam and cranshaft position sensors.

 

After I got it hooked up and running, I noticed a couple things I need help with:

 

-I have a fuel leak coming from above the starter. Drops of fuel pool below the starter. I am wondering if there's a loose connection somewhere by the lift pump. This started after I removed the starter, so it's most likely in that area.

 

I noticed my truck doesn't have anything attached to the fuel filter housing drain plug and other trucks do. There's nothing leaking from there, though.

 

-Name this hose- I attached a video- If you watch the video, you can hear my truck running! Note- I did tighten the connection that was leaking in the video (lift pump to injection pump). I accidentally removed what I think is a vacuum hose. Any idea where this goes? (at 00:34 in video)

 

 

Thank you again for the help troubleshooting. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by gsr46r

[evan717]

That fuel leak is likely the return line at the back of the head. There is a banjo fitting to a known issue-having connection. I cut it off and replaced with bit of hose & clamps and you will be on your way. Common issue. 

 

That hose looks like the vacuum supply hose from the vaccum pump to firewall. Check & see if the vacuum pump has any rigid 1/4" hose (or any hose) connected to it.  

[dripley]

Check the return line tee back in behind the fuel filter canister. Follow the return line off of the the VP to where it joins a tee. The upper portion of that tee is where the return line from the head attaches as mentioned above. It could drip right on the starter. It is a pain to get to but if it is leaking you will soon be having hard starting instances.

Edited January 20, 2020 by dripley

[gsr46r]

Thank y'all, I got the leaks fixed. I'm still having a problem with the truck, however. 

 

I drove it to the dentist's office and it did fine. On my way home, I noticed a loss of power. I pushed the pedal all the way down and it was not accelerating. I finally limped it home, but it wouldn't go uphill and was smoking white/blue smoke a lot. It gave me a code for p0216 for the injection pump. I went to get my dad and my other truck to tow it, but then it started up fine and I drove it home. So weird.

 

 

Later that night I drove it around with no problems, but I scanned it and got a **** ton of codes (see attachment). I also noticed the tach wasn't steady. It seemed to float up and down. I opened the hood and grabbed the wire harness by the ecm and pulled the wires up and pushed them into the ECM thoroughly. The CEL went off and the tach operated normally again. This leads me to believe it's an ECM issue or an issue with the wiring connection. Why else would I suddenly get a lot of codes?

 

 

The next morning, the truck wouldn't start.  I've left it alone since to get my mental composure back- I was hoping to daily drive the truck- and come up with fresh ideas.

 

 

I am thinking either cummins was right and the ECM is bad or there's an issue somewhere in the wiring. I put a new fender on the truck and maybe I didn't connect a ground tight enough or there's poor contact between a ground and fender. The other possibility is a loose pin inside of the wiring connector. The truck's 20 years old and the pins in the connector have been vibrated on the engine for 20 years.

 

What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[evan717]

Injector timing is obviously directly related to your CPS and CKP. You should add more info in your sig but I assume this is an auto trans?

 

I would first check continuity on your grounds & follow with a connector cleaning (NOT BRAKE CLEAN) & dielectric. If you fiddled with the wires and it helped....I would guess you located the vicinity of the problem.

Edited January 24, 2020 by evan717
added wisdom

[gsr46r]

Thank you.

 

Yes, it's an auto.

 

Would you probe the female end of the ECM connector to check for continuity as well?

[evan717]

4 minutes ago, gsr46r said:

Thank you.

 

Yes, it's an auto.

 

Would you probe the female end of the ECM connector to check for continuity as well?

I do not believe so. I think the ECM gets ground from a wire but I will have to check wiring diagrams to confirm. If you jiggled some wires and it temporarily solved the issue; I would have someone sit in the cab while running and do the same to see if there are any effects.

[dripley]

The ECM does have a ground in a splice in the engine harness near the front of the motor, driverside. It is a glued splice, the WT's ground mod article covers it with pictures. Fixing that splice is part of the modifacation.

 

When my oe VP crapped out I had the blue smoke and no power you describe. I dont remeber any white smoke. But it would be fine one moment and screw up the next, but I never had a no start issue.

 

That being said and you are wiggling wires and seeing improvement, thats where I would start. Thowing high dollar at a problem can get pricey and you might still have the problem.

[gsr46r]

Hello all,

I still have a couple tests to do to eliminate a bad harness as the culprit.

 

I got an update for the crank no start/intermittent start truck problem. I went upstairs to look at the truck after a break and it fired up quickly. It had a healthy sound idle, but the tach was bouncing and then the idle sounded a little uneven.

 

I pushed the harness into the ECM again and it was steady idling and the RPM flutter went away. I couldn't fit the probes into the back of the harness to back probe and check voltage with it running, so I disconnected the harness, then checked pin 30 and 49. Both have a good, solid ground and produced a solid 12 volts. I don't remember the decimal, but it was the same reading as touching the battery directly. This eliminates the ground being the issue.

 

I reattached the harness and guess what.... No start.  It just cranks.

 

To make things worse, I overtightened the harness (to correct looseness) and broke the end of the hex bolt in the ecm. 

 

After my mistake, I cleaned the connector thoroughly with electrics cleaner and left the truck alone. I took out the ECM and am gonna try to remove or rethread the screw hole.

 

I also bought some T pins so I can back probe the harness with it connected. I want to see if either the CKP or Cam position sensor is not communicating when it's plugged in. There is a discrepancy on the pinouts. On this chart from the manual ABC correspond with pins 3, 4, and 17 for the CRANK position sensor- NOT the Cam position sensor.

 

 

Do you guys know which ones correspond with the CAM position sensor? Worst case I can trace the wires, it's no big deal, but if someone knows it'd be mad helpful. I am going to back probe them and look for voltage (hall effect sensor test). I also will wiggle the hell out of the harness to see if voltage drops off from one of them. If this looks good, it has to be a bad ECM.

 

I was really disappointed with this truck, as I expected the engine to be it's strongest point. It's not all bad. I've learned a lot about electrical from this project. On a side note, I am still crazy about trucks. I took my mustang to get inspected at the dealer and mentioned the truck problem to a mechanic there. We talked for a while, and he convinced me to try a new truck. Holy hell diesel trucks have changed a lot in the last 15 years. You can barely tell the engine's running. I wound up trading my mustang and 2005 cummins for a new f250 diesel. It's so smooth.

 

Let me know if you have any more ideas. I still wanna solve this problem.

 

 

 

[evan717]

Sounds like a plug or harness issue for sure. Make sure all the connectors are properly secured in the ECM plug. Next step is to chase cam/crank sensor harness for damage but start with continuity tests. 

 

I am not a big "new diesel" fan but congratulations on the new truck!

[gsr46r]

Thanks, Evan!

 

How do I test that they're secure? The ECM harness doesn't come apart, but worst case scenario I can pull a wire replace the little metal insert when I narrow down the bad wire

 

Good call, gonna test both connectors for continuity.

[evan717]

20 minutes ago, gsr46r said:

Thanks, Evan!

 

How do I test that they're secure? The ECM harness doesn't come apart, but worst case scenario I can pull a wire replace the little metal insert when I narrow down the bad wire

 

Good call, gonna test both connectors for continuity.

I guess I would like to know where exactly your hand is on the harness when you are moving it around. Have you taken a good look at the surrounding areas for broken ground wires/connectors? I have a ground wire bolted to the block to the immediate rear of the ECM plug. Not sure if this is stock since I purchased the truck with blown engine in the bed but the workshop manual should have some diagrams. I did not confirm with manual but this seemed like the most reasonable location and fit perfectly. 

 

CHECK CONTINUITY first between ECM and sensors. Get jiggy with the harness while the meter is connected and observe. Likely a 2 person job but I rarely receive help. You can do this. I doubt it is a bad ECM but could be wrong. Start simple.   

[gsr46r]

I'll get a pic. I grab the bundle of wires right before the ECM connector and pull them upward a bit. That's what makes the difference. This isn't my truck, but this is where I grab them. My wires aren't bolted to the block. I haven't peeled back the tape, but i could check below that. Did not see anything else.

 

 

I noticed a bolt below the ecm on the block that has a ring around it. That maybe a ground. Testing continuity will be my next step! 

[evan717]

For reference: G107 is ground I mentioned. Looks like I found the proper home using logic. 

Additionally; take note the proximity of CPS location versus where you are tugging...Seems to be quite close. 

 

This being said, are you absolutely sure you're getting fuel? The VP plug is right there too...I believe both of those could cause a crank no start condition.  

 

In what condition is your overflow valve on the VP44? After my truck sat for a while through the rebuild, the ball was happily nested in the seat causing a crank no start. I took it off, pushed in the ball, shot it with brake clean, started right up. Check it out. 

[Dieselfuture]

5 hours ago, gsr46r said:

isn't my truck, but this is where I grab them.

From what I hear, there is a ground splice in that location. May need to unwrap tape and see what's there. Ground splices on these trucks are crimp with glue, pretty shitty design. 

Did you already do WT ground mod. 

[dripley]

This is the splice @Dieselfuture is speaking of. Sensor grounds. Circled in red.

Edited February 3, 2020 by dripley