Angry & can't do it anymore, serious iQuad timing issues

[Stanley]

21 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Towing to where I'm at in California I ran about 800°F at 65 MPH but with the RV and ATV in the truck bed roughly 17,500 pounds.

Well he'll, I can't imagine pulling an rv with this thing!!! 

 

23 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

because the boost is too low for making power. Fuel map need to built around your turbo more so.

 

That's kinda what I'm trying to figure out, I was to the point of buying a tune but nothing is close to what I have to really work well. It's all stressing me out Mike, lol

[Me78569]

Your truck has a slower spooling turbo and will take longer to get on boost and drop egts.  Your prior data logs never topped 1300*,. I don't think you have any issue.   I am happy to look over other logs.

 

 

You can't compare a 7 x .010 truck to a 6 x .013 truck.  Different beasts.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Me78569

[Stanley]

20 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

You can't compare a 7 x .010 truck to a 6 x .013 truck.  Different beasts

I thought I had mentioned it earlier, but I got with dap and 6x13 are sent in and getting looked at. I went ahead and got a set of 7x.011 @320bar from them - they helped me out ALOT with these, another shout out to them for their amazing customer service. 

So I'm a smidgen away from .10 🤣

 

The above mentioned nagging issue is with the new 7x.011 set

 

 

 

 

What is preferable for a log, reset while on interstate then drive a few miles/minutes and export, rinse and repeat etc? Or log whole drive into work? 

 

 

I am trying to accept the whole turbo issue/problem that I can't fix and I'll have to live with for now...

But with the smaller ones I seriously thought it would jump down on egts and up on mpg. 

 

Oh and running AC adds 30-40 degrees to temp haha. Oil temp and coolant are always the same sometimes oil is hotter. It's definitely not in Mike's rule of thumb for timing.

[Silverwolf2691]

Logs depend on what you are looking for.. Might be better to mark the time over multiple exports since the Quad has a time stamp you can reference.

 

Truth be told, I'm experiencing similar issues but for opposite reasons.. I'm still running 50s with a 62/68/14. Accelerating up an on ramp onto the highway puts me at 1300°f or more if I am not watching what things are doing. And a max of 25psi. At this point I'm almost convinced I cant drive the turbo hard enough. but 700-900°f EGTs are common on anything resembling a hill. And if its a noticeable hill, 1200°f...

 

I also have the same issue with oil and coolant temps.

 

The next part might need its own dedicated thread, but I wonder if the 4.10s and HO model engine impact things to such a degree over an SO engine. I've brought it up before but that was more for the timing specific to the HO VP44..

 

And there goes my work day lol, gonna be noodling that all the day ..

[Mopar1973Man]

Make me wonder with my 7x0.010 +150 HP injectors and running stock HX35W turbo with no issues. I can run level 3 and  tow the RV and stay very controlled. I think people are upgrading turbos too soon and/or too big and don't either have the fuel or the turbo spools too late and bam high EGTs. 

 

After my head gasket adventure I've got a max boost on this stock turbo at 35 PSI. Spools very fast and runs cool, empty my 55 MPH is about 450°F. Heck just chasing @JAG1 to camp my RV is about 8100 pounds and a 700 pound ATV in the bed, figure about 18,000 pounds total weight. 7,xxx foot climb all the way here bare was busting a sweat at 1,000°F. Cally speed out here is 55 MPH. I will admit the coolant ran 195 to 197°F but oil temp floating 197 to 200°F, empty the oil drops back to 160 to 170°F.

 

Even running the Interstate at 65 MPH was tipping only 800°F. Fully loaded, grade might bump 1,000°F. Sometime bigger isn't better. This is why I build in step one part a time. @Silverwolf2691 +50 HP you should back on a stock turbo, too big and not enough fuel. Shouldn,t upgrade till about 100 HP or 150 HP. Then down side it wire tap for me now i need what @Silverwolf2691 has for a turbo. Since I'm not in it for racing but efficiency don't really need it.

 

Just consider the 3rd Gen which is a (60/60/9) turbo. Slightly larger but smaller turbine housing. Thor is tipping the scales at 9,000 pounds just truck. I've towed my RV back one time. Even that truck with +50 HP DAP injectors spools quick and EGTs are controlled. Thor has enough fuel to trip a P0234 code. What Beast has is just a stock (54/60/12), with the Hybrid is was (60/60/12) which I still like better more air and ran cooler.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Mopar1973Man

[Silverwolf2691]

I don't disagree with what you are saying @Mopar1973Man.

 

When my HX35 was still in (granted too small of tires for 4.10s) I could almost match everything that you have mentioned except cruise egts (450-550°f at 45-55, 650ish at 70) and oil temps (+5-10°F). Even sled pulling with all 2200us of wire tap I only just barely broke 1100°f nearly all if not all of my pulls.

 

I have 7x.011s at 320 bar waiting to go in but I was hoping to fix my cylinder head before I put those in. Not sure that's gonna happen this season since my first pull is in a couple weeks. Might have to put everything in and deal with it for a bit.. 

 

If I had to do things over again I'm really not sure what I would go with. One thing I'm heavily leaning towards is a 12cm housing. Multiple places seem to have a consensus that the 12cm housings just respond better overall than the 14cm housings. Might be worth the drop in horsepower... We shall see how things go.

[Stanley]

I got a few data logs for @Me78569 the one from today has a full send at the end, last little stretch of road before turning into work. I try to get the logs on the flattest parts of the drive into work. I seem to be averaging low 700*s at 65-67 mpg. Any, and I mean any little smidge of an incline and it shoots up, super sensitive. Well see what fuel mpg is once gauge shows half a tank and ill fill up again - been running the walmart marine 2 stroke oil lately. 

I think it runs ok for the most part, it could be better, not sure which part of the tune to try and modify first. 

Probably over thinking it but there might be a slight chance I have a valve issue or something internal, also found my clutch has an excessive rattle now - maybe 5k on it...

iQuad-2022-05-16-06.03.201100454368[1].csv iQuad-2022-05-13-06.01.081353158434[1].csv iQuad-2022-05-13-05.56.10-1563766250[1].csv

[Stanley]

Anyone have anymore thoughts from above ^^^^?

 

Would injector lines or cross over tubes make things go wonky if there not correct or bad perhaps? They were new but new can be junk as most prolly know...

I still got that syringe sound... 

 

And of course my tic/knock - no frigggin idea....

 

Still lost in the sauce, I basically got a $800 boost fooler cause believe me I've tried and I simply can't figure it out. Once it clicks with what the hell needs to happen, then I'll be OK. Don't know where to start. FML 

[SVALIN]

Shot in the dark. How old is the Cam sensor?

 

I had a serious case of Murphy law when I put in my 150s. No codes or anything, finally showed itself when the tac went haywire and dropped off. Finally a P0341.

 

Needless to say it was very difficult to tune. Unless you were looking for smoke, high load, egt, and low power.

[Mopar1973Man]

I'm starting to think a 64/71/14 is just too big of a turbo. Being I'm on a stock HX35W turbo (54/60/12) with 150HP injectors and EGTs are still controlled. Made my trip to Bridgeport, CA and haul my RV to 7,500 feet of elevation. The total weight scaled was 17,500 pounds total truck and trailer. I ran level 3. The only problem I had was head wind which got the trans temp up to 220°F. No EGT issues. My boost is limited to 35 PSI total.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Mopar1973Man

[Stanley]

5 hours ago, SVALIN said:

Shot in the dark. How old is the Cam sensor?

 

I had a serious case of Murphy law when I put in my 150s. No codes or anything, finally showed itself when the tac went haywire and dropped off. Finally a P0341.

 

Needless to say it was very difficult to tune. Unless you were looking for smoke, high load, egt, and low power.

I don't believe I've changed that one yet. Worth a shot! Thanks for the tip. 

Still concerned about the syringe noise, never heard it before cummins or John deere. 

Then there's still figuring out how to tune, just can't figure it out?

21 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I'm starting to think a 64/71/14 is just too big of a turbo.

 I'm just going to have to accept that part of the equation for now. I guess if it's running good but hot that's ok for now. 1-3 psi during cruise. 

[Me78569]

been busy,

 

again looking at your logs the hottest temp I see is 1150*f, which is not hot.  stock trucks run above 1300 all the time.  your cruise egt's at 65 in the log are sitting at 650-700, which again is not that hot for cruise with the turbo you have.   I see you come out of cruise, egt's come up to 900* 1000* and taper off.  That is normal.

 

I don't think anything is wrong. I think the turbo is just not the right turbo for what you want, but nothing is actually wrong.  

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Me78569

[Stanley]

Thank you @Me78569

I am going to replace the cam and crank position sensors prolly this afternoon. 

Never changed by me so why not huh. Maybe it will help...

Sounds...Its not a hard miss but still kinda- sorta sounds like one.-------Weird syringe sound by lines? Anyone know what Im talking about? Thats why I asked about the lines and tubes. 

[SVALIN]

@Stanley

Someone more familiar with the VP will have to chime in, Im only speaking from my case example. I would GUESS, that the cam sensor has more influence over the pump then the crank. Although the 2 sensor definitely work hand in hand, so cant hurt.
 

The CMP is a lot harder to change. I think its a single 5 mm allen holding it in place, but you need a long wobble allen and wobble socket and really contorted arms. reaching behind the inj lines, On timing case hidden behind the pump.

 

I dont have an idea about the line sounds.

 

Also if @Me78569 thinks the data isnt abnormal, probably right. Again Im just throwing shot in dark, so no promises on what helped me.

[Silverwolf2691]

His truck, your truck, and mine all only have the cam sensor. The crank sensor was done away in '99 or '00.

@Stanley, what do you mean by syringe sound? Like a hissing sound? Might need to crank on the fittings more?

 

I think I know what the fittings for the head/line/crossover tube interface are based on but I would need measurements to be sure. The fitting style is called an Autoclave or generically, an extreme pressure fitting. They are rated for like 15ksi on the low end and 150ksi on the high end. (ksi is thousand psi. ex: 150ksi = 150k psi = 150,000psi). They are a metal to metal seal like AN fittings so in theory if its leaking slightly just tighten down a bit more?  Within reason of course.. 

 

28 ft-lbs is the recommended torque but there is also the injector hold down vs line tightening sequence.. The injector hold down is torqued last after tightening the injector line fitting.. 

 

 

[Stanley]

Sorry took a bit to get back. 

@Silverwolf2691 sounds are so hard to describe but if you took a syringe full of (water) and pushed it out really hard that wierd sqeakey squirting sound....? Never heard that sound on anything ive worked on, cummins or john deere. 

As ocd as I am and as many times I have changed these dang injectors I am super by the book on steps/torque etc. I'll admit it is extremely challenging to get all the lines torqued properly even with the tooling I have... 

 

As far as my cam/crank sensor, it's replaced. Prolly gonna make an article on install. Have my valve cover off to check valve lash again and I'm half tempted to pull the push rods to check them (for my tick-tap noise). Check what I can except valves......

 

Words of advise on that? 

Mainly just time consuming....

Edited May 29, 2022 by Stanley

[Stanley]

Don't know if it's really worth my time pulling push rods yet, kinda hesitant, and it's Memorial Day lol.

 

Thoughts? 

 

Any small inconspicuous tale tale signs to check that one might miss if I did proceed? 

 

[SVALIN]

On 5/25/2022 at 10:45 AM, Silverwolf2691 said:

His truck, your truck, and mine all only have the cam sensor. The crank sensor was done away in '99  

 

Whoops! Thought I saw one down there with mine, but could’ve gotten mixed up with another one. Guess Im half right, CMP has a ton more data to give than the crank! 
 

@Stanley For rods, usually roll them on flat surface to see if bent. Check for cracks or uneven wear on the ball. Standard stuff.. Quick google on some larger engines said they could crack and get filled with oil?? That would change mass of rod. I dont know if thats the case with our engines.. You can crank engine over by hand, with cover off, see if a valve is bent or sticking. Not many things jumping to mind though.

 

Have you tried a stethoscope? Put it on each injection line to be sure its something there. Taking stuff apart can be fun, but not always productive. I had a loose exhaust brake support rattle, that for longest time thought was in tappets, even though on other side of engine!

[Stanley]

Here is some pics of #1 exhaust and intake rockers and push rods.

 

there is a significant (mushrooming) on the intake push rod and some on exhaust. Both have bluing and one a wierd swirly on it. Rockers and fulcrum  have scarring too. 

 

Only number 1. Not looking good so far. What's yalls veteran experience with this? 

 

 

@Silverwolf2691 @Mopar1973Man @Me78569 @SVALIN

 

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[Great work!]

There is a little wear in the rocker bores are they real sloppy on the shafts? Not bad though. Boosted valve springs always add wear to any valve train.