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Guest 04Mach1

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Guest 04Mach1

After posting and debating on the use of an additive in diesel fuel in a different thread. Maybe we should share our practices to help each other out. I know this can be a very argumentative subject. Point is many of us have had our trucks from times when quality and selection of products wasn't so great. We all know diesel fuel has taken a dive in quality over the years but IMO engine oils and such have made drastic improvements. Some of us have products and services at our disposal that others don't.

 

I own two Cummins powered 2nd gens.

 

1997 12 Valve - 220,000 miles on the clock - 180,000 of those under this practice. Rotella T6 5W40 oil with a LF16035 oil filter. Every 7,500 miles - grease job, fuel filter, oil filter, and oil analysis. At 15,000 miles grease job, fuel filter, oil change, oil filter, and oil analysis. Oil analysis always has had very low wear metal levels and nearly no contamination. TBN is always above 7 when changing the oil at 15,000.

 

2001 24 Valve - 113,000 miles on the clock - 27,000 of those under this practice. Delvac LE 5W30 oil with LF16035 oil filter. Every 7,500 miles - grease job, oil filter, and oil analysis. At 15,000 miles grease job, fuel filter, oil change, oil filter, and oil analysis. Oil analysis always has had very low wear metal levels and nearly no contamination. TBN is always above 7 when changing the oil at 15,000. Granted I'm only on my second synthetic oil change with this truck my experience with the 12 Valve is leading me to follow the same practice.

 

Neither truck has ever had any sort of additive in the oil or diesel fuel since I've owned them. Another practice I follow when making decisions on oil for these trucks is if the current Cummins spec CES 20081 is listed on the bottle.

 

I am not a fan of marketed oils such as Amsoil, Lucas, or anything claiming to be the cure all. Seeing is believing for me and many products have fell short of that in my view. I know Amsoil has a synthetic classification of IV to the Rotella T6 and Delvac LE class III synthetic classification but I have seen too many bad oil analysis showing high copper and iron readings on customer vehicles using Amsoil.

Edited by 04Mach1
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I think there are lots of guys who use the two stroke oil. Just placing the fuel between your fingertips..... the feel and the smell says this new stuff has less oil/ lube in it. So using 2 stroke is what diesels were meant to run on. It's the oil that makes 'em last so long.

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Folks keep forgetting that TBN is only half the story, it is not what protects the internal components, its the quality additive package of the oil and the quality of base oil to start with, if the additives are depleted which no UOA company tests for or most can't this is the most important part of the oil.

 

Unlike most other companies I can say that Amsoil does not nor ever has marketed themselves as a "Cure all", they do some of the most unbiased test of any company I see, they regularly post oil test reports and place themselves in the appropriate placing according to the spec tests they are doing and they may be in the top 3 in a lot they are not afraid to post where they are week in those tests as well.

 

As far as higher than usual copper reading this is common anytime an oil is switched be it standard or dino and this is also common oil cooler erosion and nothing to worry about.

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Guest 04Mach1

TBN measures the oils ability to suspend wear causing contaminants and reduce the corrosive effects of acid produced by combustion. If the wear metal and contaminate levels are low then TBN and Viscosity determine if the oil needs replaced. Wear metals most of the time come from with in the engine and in most cases are caused by friction. Oils of today can go very long periods of time as long as you can keep it clean. Idling your diesel engine is one of the worst things for oil. The low operating temperature of idling produces soot build up. Eroding oil coolers are a bad sign as that means there will more than likely be coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant in short time which is never normal or good. Same thing goes for EGR coolers which is the most common source of copper on EGR engines, especially Cummins ISX engines.   The coolants on the shelf today will show up as Potassium and Sodium on the oil analysis. Another source of sodium is the air filter if you drive where salt or mag chloride are used on the roads. Air filter restrictors gauges are ok in determining the filters restriction but minute levels of dirt and road contaminants still make it through the paper element. Dirt will show up as silicon. Restricted air filters will cause high soot levels.

 

As for Amsoil. Yes Amsoil themselves have never made any outrageous claims or marketing but their dealers / distributors have. Even if the oil analysis had not swung my decision the other way I would still not likely buy Amsoil as any benefits the oil may have will never offset the cost. I'll stick with Shell and Exxon Mobil. Delo would be the only other option if Rotella or Delvac weren't available. 

 

To all that have oil analysis done. Confirm with 3 or more oil analysis tests several miles apart to confirm you indeed have a mechanical problem before ripping your engine apart.

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I will debate you till the ends of the earth on the copper levels, I have been monitoring them on fleets of mining equipment for near 15 years now, there is a large normal range and I have seen many engines have high side of the normal range copper levels from new until 24K hours and stay that way until it was pulled for overhaul. Unless it shows sodium or potassium for coolant there is no issue till that point, most coolers fail long before copper will indicate a cooler failure. Our Cat C32 engines have failed EGR coolers several times and until coolant showed on the UOA there was no prior indication of elevated copper readings until right at failure point.

 

In the end I will have spent a lot less money running synthetic than you running Dino if it is done right and folks get the old school mentality of constant oil changes at set point out of their heads.

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Guest 04Mach1

I will debate you till the ends of the earth on the copper levels, I have been monitoring them on fleets of mining equipment for near 15 years now, there is a large normal range and I have seen many engines have high side of the normal range copper levels from new until 24K hours and stay that way until it was pulled for overhaul. Unless it shows sodium or potassium for coolant there is no issue till that point, most coolers fail long before copper will indicate a cooler failure. Our Cat C32 engines have failed EGR coolers several times and until coolant showed on the UOA there was no prior indication of elevated copper readings until right at failure point.

 

In the end I will have spent a lot less money running synthetic than you running Dino if it is done right and folks get the old school mentality of constant oil changes at set point out of their heads.

 

Cat with EGR???? Cool, I didn't know they existed. I'll have to check those out. Why in the world would Cat run EGR with off road machines? I thought Cat got out of the Truck engine business because they refused to integrate EGR to their engines for fear reliability would suffer. I heard Cat then sold the engine designs to International in which International designed a new cylinder head fitting the engine with EGR and branding it as a Maxxforce which to Cat's fear there are multiple lawsuits against International for the EGR on the Maxxforce. Even the CAT branded trucks have International Maxxforce 13 engines painted yellow and branded as Cat. International has since discontinued the Maxxforce 15 (aka C15) and replaced the offering with the Cummins ISX15.

 

Anyhow... The engine oils I run in  both my trucks are of synthetic classification although not as high in classification as Amsoil, I feel they perform just as well if not better. I could probably double or triple the drain interval on my Dodge trucks but why when a T6 or Delvac LE oil change cost me $65 with the LF16035 oil filter and I do it on about a yearly basis. I have a regular customer that is part of Caterpillar's  million mile club. His Acert C15 has 1.4 million and has not had an oil pan plug out of the pan in the past 1.3 million miles and 5 years using Rotella T6 with no bypass filtration. He is very anal in maintenance intervals otherwise. I run the oil I do for the lighter viscosity mostly. 15W40 worked great for the diesel engines of 40 and 50 years ago when you could fit a tooth pick between the bearing and crank shaft but todays engines have considerably tighter tolerances and do not require 15W40 viscosity.

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lol..............I am not talking those baby OTR truck engines I am talking CAT C16 & C32 V12  and 3500 series heavy mine equipment engines.  They too have to meet tier 4 emissions criteria as of 2 years ago for off road equipment tier 2 can still be sold if it is going into non OEM equipment and being sold to 3rd parts equipment mfgr.

 

Equipment sales were booming a couple years ago with low interest rates and the ability for companies to get pre tier 4 engines in equipment.

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Guest 04Mach1

Just blows my mind that Cat gave in. Been many years since I've touched anything larger than a 16 liter diesel. Well since 2003 when we sold our last D8.

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Guest 04Mach1

Well darn it. I did an oil analysis because I noticed the oil grew about a quart on the dipstick. Just as I suspected there is likely an internal fuel leak. I'm hoping it's just o-rings on the injectors. OA showed <0.1 soot, 9.6 TBN, VISC 10.6@100*C and 68@40*C. Oil has 12800 miles. Low viscosity and making oil = fuel leak inside engine.

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Guest 04Mach1

http://s46.photobucket.com/user/Mach1stang2/media/IMAG0159_zpsd15ae8ee.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

Screaming Yellow, shaker, 5 speed, 32V 4.6 V8, 3.55 geared. 17x10.5 rears with 315/35R17 tires. Ran a 13.2 @ 106 mph at Bandimere. Only goodies I have on it is Diablo Predator and Flowmaster cat back. Still have the stock cats thanks to Colorado emissions and wouldn't pass with the aftermarket high flow cats.

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http://s46.photobucket.com/user/Mach1stang2/media/IMAG0159_zpsd15ae8ee.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

Screaming Yellow, shaker, 5 speed, 32V 4.6 V8, 3.55 geared. 17x10.5 rears with 315/35R17 tires. Ran a 13.2 @ 106 mph at Bandimere. Only goodies I have on it is Diablo Predator and Flowmaster cat back. Still have the stock cats thanks to Colorado emissions and wouldn't pass with the aftermarket high flow cats.

 

Oh ya, that's nice! My brother had a red one. Rugged power/torque, those are fun!

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Well darn it. I did an oil analysis because I noticed the oil grew about a quart on the dipstick. Just as I suspected there is likely an internal fuel leak. I'm hoping it's just o-rings on the injectors. OA showed <0.1 soot, 9.6 TBN, VISC 10.6@100*C and 68@40*C. Oil has 12800 miles. Low viscosity and making oil = fuel leak inside engine.

Pull your valve cover and you should see a clean spot where the leak is (if it is there). You could also start the enging and look for a leak too, but BE CAREFUL doing this. High pressure fuel can cause serious injuries. If by chance you don't find it there then you could have a front seal on the VP leaking although that is really uncommon.

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Guest 04Mach1

Would connector tubes cause this? I ask because #5 & #6 injector lines were loose and leaking externally when I bought the truck. I snugged the lines and no further leaks have been seen until recently.

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Guest 04Mach1

Yeah I know that but if connector tubes was damaged when the lines were loose would I see an internal leak? I currently have no external leaks and haven't since snugging the lines 2 years ago. Sorry for sounding dumb on this but I am just used to my 6BT and haven't messed with the ISB much.

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Ok im here to clear some things up. You can leak between the connector tube and injector and it will not leak into the oil. The fuel returns through the return in the head. The o-rings on the injector keep the fuel seperated from the oil.

And as far as following the manual to the T, I dont do it. I install injector, start the bolts, install connector tube and use the injector to center the connector tube in the hole. Now on a 3rd gen I start the connector tube nut and hand tighten. Now torque injector bolts, torque tube nut and finally the fuel line. I have never had one leak or hard starts.

Now I have nicked the o-ring and instantly caused hard starts. You have to remember, air molucles are tiny so you can have and air leak without a fuel leak. I always use a grease on the o-rings to keep them from getting damaged.

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Ok im here to clear some things up. You can leak between the connector tube and injector and it will not leak into the oil. The fuel returns through the return in the head. The o-rings on the injector keep the fuel seperated from the oil.

.

So, then you are saying he cannot have a fuel leak that is getting into the oil? The fuel is getting in somehow.

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