..feels like I'm getting kicked in kisser

[pepsi71ocean]

I had a similar issue with my fass, turned out to be a plugged filter, swapping files made it go away. Then again my fass 150 spring shot the fuel psi up about 7 psi.

[diesel4life]

If you really want to get it back on the road, try some PS "911" Take the filters off, shake out as much gelled fuel as you can, and refill with that product. Put the remainder (up to the required amount) in the tank.

Your fuel is clouded, and no amount of howes, or any product similar will work to clear it up. Pulling it into a heated garage speeds it up too..

Man, just as I've said for several years now.. just because they claim 'winterized', or blended.. it's still a crap shoot..

I used to make a 50/50 blend of #1 and #2 work just fine... now it has to be closer to 75% #1

I like your name, there is a guy not far from here that has a slant 6 in a modified tractor puller, called the same..Buzznhalfadozen

I wonder if I could call my Jeep "buzzinthirddozen"?

 

 

 

Yep, PS makes some good products that will get you back on the road in a situation like this. It seems as though they aren't very popular here because of their minimal HFRR improvement, but when ya gotta get it back on the road the 911 stuff absolutely works. I'm going to be the devils advocate and say this is exactly why I choose to run a fuel conditioner instead of 2 stroke oil. Aside from the benefit of fuel system and upper cylinder lubrication, a good conditioner has the necessary detergents  to prevent the insolubles and varnish from low quality fuels from "clotting" up and plugging filters and injectors and disperses water to prevent fuel icing. It's  not always just one bad tank of fuel that plugs filters. ULSD is hygroscopic and there is very small amounts of water in ALL diesel, especially in storage tanks or vehicles that don't see a high turn over rate of fuel. 2 stroke oil does nothing for any of these scenarios

Edited January 19, 2015 by diesel4life

[Dieselfuture]

Just stopped at place I usually fill up and asked them about temperature that their fuel is good for and they said -10f, well I think it's their wishful thinking because in 0 it was getting cloudy. We should be in teens and 20s for a while I'm thinking about using bio that says 5-20% bio on pump and clerk told me it was good to -20f which is hard to believe. Funny thing is about 2 years ago same station didn't specified what % bio it was and then I questioned them, they said 2-5% bio and now 2 years later they got a sticker on pump saying anywhere between 5-20% bio.

[diesel4life]

Many states are not even required to disclose to the public if they are selling biodiesel. Same goes with ethanol blended gas.

If your fuel is cloudy at that temp you might want to think about finding a different station. B5 has the same pour point as properly winterized #2, so there should be no issues running it in cold temps. Minnesota laws require a minimum of either B2 or B5 and they run it year around, and they are one of the coldest states in the lower 48.

[Mopar1973Man]

Add Oregon to that list too now Oregon is mandated to sell B5 for diesel fuel now.

[MnTom]

Minnesota is allowing up to B20..........

[diesel4life]

Minnesota is allowing up to B20..........

I believe that is the maximum allowed by any state?

Its interesting that they (Minnesota) jump back and forth between B5 minimum in the winter and B10 minimum in the summer. Seems like they're walking a fine line.

[Dieselfuture]

I just put 25 gallons of 5-20% bio in my truck and went to talk with clerk, I asked them again about what temperature their fuel is good for and they didn't know this time, ( the other day it was -20f different guy at counter) but he was nice enough to go to back room and grab a big jug and show it to me. It was regular white color power service, just in 2.5 gallon. He said driver comes in back door and grabs what he needs and dumps it in according to what's on the truck.

Next question to Mike, I know you say it's not good to mix PS and 2cycle oil so I stooped doing that in the winter, but little that I knew it's already in fuel for winterizing. And my guess is that other stations also put PS in to treat fuel, whether it's bio or not. I know that there is no reason putting 2cycle in bio but if regular #2 gets treated with PS then how bad is it to add 2cycle to it?

[diesel4life]

Are you positive it was an anti gel product and not some kind of a biocide? Fuel station owners should not be playing chemist with cold weather additives. This should be done by the supplier at the rack.

Per ASTM:

"In the United States there is no legislation on a fixed time frame when winter diesel must meet a specific temperature characteristic. The ASTM D 975 standard does not specify the cold flow requirements of diesel fuel. Instead, it suggests that the cloud point be no more than 6°C higher than the 10th percentile minimum ambient temperature for the month the fuel will be used. The 10th percentile temperature corresponds to the minimum temperature that would be reached no more than 3 days out of 30 for the month (decile). The ASTM D 975 contains overview maps that show the expected tenth percentile temperature for every month for each state.[34]

Using these guidelines gas stations offer "winter ready diesel" for sale to the Motorist - there are two ways to achieve this:

winter blend - the gas station has blended the No.2 diesel with No.1(kerosene) by some percentage.

winterized diesel - the No.2 diesel has been treated with additives by the diesel supplier.

As the treatment with additives (1:40000[35]) is a cheaper way to enhance No.2 fuel in winter, most stations offer winterized diesel in cold weather conditions. In regions with colder weather, most gas stations offer No.1 fuel at the same pump allowing drivers to decide for themselves on a winter blend."

Edited January 23, 2015 by diesel4life

[Dieselfuture]

Are you positive it was an anti gel product and not some kind of a biocide? Fuel station owners should not be playing chemist with cold weather additives. This should be done by the supplier at the rack.

Per ASTM:

"In the United States there is no legislation on a fixed time frame when winter diesel must meet a specific temperature characteristic. The ASTM D 975 standard does not specify the cold flow requirements of diesel fuel. Instead, it suggests that the cloud point be no more than 6°C higher than the 10th percentile minimum ambient temperature for the month the fuel will be used. The 10th percentile temperature corresponds to the minimum temperature that would be reached no more than 3 days out of 30 for the month (decile). The ASTM D 975 contains overview maps that show the expected tenth percentile temperature for every month for each state.[34]

Using these guidelines gas stations offer "winter ready diesel" for sale to the Motorist - there are two ways to achieve this:

winter blend - the gas station has blended the No.2 diesel with No.1(kerosene) by some percentage.

winterized diesel - the No.2 diesel has been treated with additives by the diesel supplier.

As the treatment with additives (1:40000[35]) is a cheaper way to enhance No.2 fuel in winter, most stations offer winterized diesel in cold weather conditions. In regions with colder weather, most gas stations offer No.1 fuel at the same pump allowing drivers to decide for themselves on a winter blend."

Jug he showed me said Power Service treats 1500 gallons. Regular white jug with black writing on it. I couldn't find where it said anything on temperature ether.

[diesel4life]

Then that bottle wouldn't even treat a partial tank unless this is a very small gas station. That and it would be VERY cost prohibitive to treat fuel in that method. Makes me wonder if he wasn't using the PS jug to store some type of biocide or fuel stabilizer (more likely if it is a low volume station).

[Dieselfuture]

Then that bottle wouldn't even treat a partial tank unless this is a very small gas station. That and it would be VERY cost prohibitive to treat fuel in that method. Makes me wonder if he wasn't using the PS jug to store some type of biocide or fuel stabilizer (more likely if it is a low volume station).

It was an unopened jug clean looking and he said they got a bunch in back and add it in before truck dumps it's fuel in and that trucker is the one that does it, and will put as much additive in as needed for load. It's cum and go and only few years old has 4 diesel pumps 4 e85 pumps and about 12 regular pumps.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Dieselfuture

[rancherman]

our  transport loads  are treated  at  point of  delivery.   

Meaning,   when they  dump  at the filling station,  or   the  bulk tanks  for the   tanker  delivery  guy.     

 

This  is  only true  for the  winterization  part.   Not sure   at the point  they make     a  generic  fuel    a  'branded'  fuel:   mobil,   Conoco,  BP,..  This  is  probably done   when the transporter is  filled.

[diesel4life]

Rancherman, Im guessing they must blend #1 and #2 at your local stations? That really is the only blending that takes place "at the pump" so to speak. True winterized #2 has the additives blended at the terminal before they are ever picked up by the tanker trucks. Failure to do this would not only cause a slew of problems before the fuel ever hit the customer (untreated #2 has a cloud point of around 20*F), there would also be a huge inconsistency in the amount added by the truck driver/ station owner. Its a little more complicated than just a "dump and pray" method at each delivery.

[Mopar1973Man]

Next question to Mike, I know you say it's not good to mix PS and 2cycle oil so I stooped doing that in the winter, but little that I knew it's already in fuel for winterizing. And my guess is that other stations also put PS in to treat fuel, whether it's bio or not. I know that there is no reason putting 2cycle in bio but if regular #2 gets treated with PS then how bad is it to add 2cycle to it?

 

because they negate each other.

 

2 Cycle oil is a cetane reducer

PS is a cetane booster

 

2 Cycle oil is a lubricity enhancer (low HFRR)

PS is more of a injector cleaner (high HFRR)

 

So after adding both you get basically nothing.

[Dieselfuture]

because they negate each other.

2 Cycle oil is a cetane reducer

PS is a cetane booster

2 Cycle oil is a lubricity enhancer (low HFRR)

PS is more of a injector cleaner (high HFRR)

So after adding both you get basically nothing.

That makes perfect since to me, but if gas stations puts PS to treat their fuel, and if a guy dint know about it assuming they are using something else like A mix of #1 and #2 and adds 2cycle in then you're kind of screwed. And I'm not sure if it's just stations around here or a lot of them practice that.

[rancherman]

Rancherman, Im guessing they must blend #1 and #2 at your local stations? That really is the only blending that takes place "at the pump" so to speak. True winterized #2 has the additives blended at the terminal before they are ever picked up by the tanker trucks. Failure to do this would not only cause a slew of problems before the fuel ever hit the customer (untreated #2 has a cloud point of around 20*F), there would also be a huge inconsistency in the amount added by the truck driver/ station owner. Its a little more complicated than just a "dump and pray" method at each delivery.

OUR  terminal  get  fuel  via pipeline  straight from   the  refineries   'down south'.     It  arrives  pretty  'hot',   and   the turnover  is  pretty fast.   fuel in the  huge   vessels   would  take  a long time  to chill,  even   at     sub zero  temps.        I've seen   countless  tankers  dumping their loads   without a bit of  snow or ice  on the  tanks...  when the  tractor  is  plastered from the trip.   I  stood there and  watched  a  driver hand  the owner the  invoice,    it  was   figured  on   weight,  temperature,  to give    expected gallons  actually dumped in the   undergrounds.

 

Unfortunately,    'dump and  pray'  is  about  all  we have  around  'here'.     Otherwise,    why  are   there  thousands  of cases  of    'treatment'  being sold each  year  in  my   county alone!

Edited January 24, 2015 by rancherman

[TFaoro]

because they negate each other.

 

2 Cycle oil is a cetane reducer

PS is a cetane booster

 

2 Cycle oil is a lubricity enhancer (low HFRR)

PS is more of a injector cleaner (high HFRR)

 

So after adding both you get basically nothing.

So I understand that they negate each other in both cetane and how well it lubes, but if it prevents gelling I don't see why you wouldn't do it? Would the 2 stroke make the fuel gel? Our snowmobile oil flows pretty well even down at -25F. 

I guess what I'm saying is if I were to add PS to prevent gelling I know it lowers the HFRR... Well if I add 2 stroke it pulls the HFRR back up to 'normal' level and the tank still doesn't gel I consider that a win. Am I way off here??

[diesel4life]

OUR terminal get fuel via pipeline straight from the refineries 'down south'.

Now I gotcha. This is the part I was missing, makes sense now.

The thing you guys gotta remember about PS is it is still a mild improvement in HFRR over straight #2. (61 micron improvement). Not optimal, but not the end all of the world by any means. A mild bump in cetane in COLD weather never hurts either. ALL winterized fuel has cetane improvers to aid in cold weather starting and combustion. Not gonna get away from that no matter where you buy your fuel from.

If your filling with a bio blend, 2 stroke is a waste of money as it is. Even B2 has 2.5 times the lubricity of 2 stroke. Being 2 stroke does nothing to keep your fuel above its cloud point or for the dispersion of water, there are better options out there as a fuel treatment (with better HFRR improvement too.)

I know, I know, that's hardly popular or accepted on this forum! Sorry!

Edited January 24, 2015 by diesel4life

[Mopar1973Man]

Actually look at the bottle most 2 cycle oil has a pour point of at least -40*F. Then snowmobile 2 cycle oil has pour point of at least -50*F so if normal #2 winterized diesel is round -20*F then 2 cycle oil will add but not sure how much... Might read up on PPD (Pour Point Depressants) and some of chemicals.