Teardown and Rebuild

[crf450ish]

20 hours ago, notlimah said:

 

What does the industrial cover come off of, or where would you even find one?

Older GROVE cranes with the 24V Cummins. I've seen many of them. 

[jlbayes]

2 hours ago, AH64ID said:

 

It can easily resolve that issue by opening at temp before pressure rises so that pressure is never allowed to build. In the end it will do the same thing by flowing fluid away from the back of the block but it never lets it build in the first place. 

 

 

 

Pressure build up in the back of the head is due to lack of circulation, which also would increase the heat present. Both systems seem to work. Although I prefer pressure based relief along with introducing the coolant before the thermostat. Fleece had an issue with the cheap thermostats failing open and would cause the truck to never reach operating temp. Their system introduced the bypassed coolant post thermostat.

[TFaoro]

4 hours ago, AH64ID said:

Most people have issues by romping on a cold motor. If the motor is warm it is very very rare to have any freeze plug issues. 

 

The issue also isn't just the water pump but the expansion of the cylinder wall during combustion creating a ripple in the coolant. 

 

I've read about issues with pressure relief because if the main thermostat isn't open the pressure relief isn't enough and freeze plugs pop. 

 

I like the thermostat idea but it may work better for long pulls and/or towing. 

 

I have also read about guys removing their thermostat and running an electric water pump on a temperature switch. This keeps the water pump from accelerating out of it's operational range and doesn't have the issue of building pressure with the thermostat closed. 

I agree with the cold motor, but I don't. Mine doesn't even like to move unless water temps are above 100*. 

 

I agree with the heat as well, but a thermostat won't be able to relieve that pressure as fast as a pressure relief will. And if there isn't enough flow through the tiny holes in the thermostat it won't get hot enough to open. 

 

I agree with a thermostat potentially being better for a towing/constant load situation. 

 

I've read that as well, but many of the threads say an electric pump is horrible for reliability. 

 

3 hours ago, jlbayes said:

There is data floating around with 90psi being measured in the back of the head/block. I do not see a temperature based bypass resolving that issue.

Check the link I posted above. 

 

3 hours ago, AH64ID said:

 

It can easily resolve that issue by opening at temp before pressure rises so that pressure is never allowed to build. In the end it will do the same thing by flowing fluid away from the back of the block but it never lets it build in the first place. 

 

 

But if you think about the situation I described above, the thermostat wouldn't have time to open before the pressure spiked dangerously high. 

 

Now that I have a little bit of data I need to figure out what pressure I want the valve set at. Also have to remember the higher the pressure the higher the flow. Cracking pressure is very little flow. 

[jlbayes]

Had a couple discussions over the last 2 months on opening pressure. Wanted to try 30-40psi and see how it acted. Really needs a pressure gauge installed to know what is going on.

[TFaoro]

3 hours ago, jlbayes said:

Had a couple discussions over the last 2 months on opening pressure. Wanted to try 30-40psi and see how it acted. Really needs a pressure gauge installed to know what is going on.

Those were some numbers I was finding as well. I just don't want it opening at highway speeds (80mph = 22-2300 rpm) so I need to know those pressures to keep it closed during normal operation. If it opens above ~2400 rpm or so I'll be plenty happy. 

I also can't find a valve that I can set the pressures on. Looks like the only one I can find you have to tell them the pressure you want it set at before you order it. 

[jlbayes]

Watts valve is the only one I know of. As long as the bypass feeds into the cooling system before the thermostat I really do not see a problem if it opens before you really would want it to.

[TFaoro]

53 minutes ago, jlbayes said:

Watts valve is the only one I know of.

Watts 530C is what I see most commonly on DIY setups. The biggest problem with it is you can only set it down to 50psi. No lower.

http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=6821

 

Aquatrol series 55 can be set as low as 10psi. 

http://aquatrol.com/charts/Capacity-69.pdf (look at the bottom)

http://aquatrol.com/charts/Series69.pdf (sizing chart)

 

Quote

As long as the bypass feeds into the cooling system before the thermostat I really do not see a problem if it opens before you really would want it to.

Mine will feed into a spacer that goes between the block and thermostat housing. The thermostat stays in the block though, so the antifreeze will be pushed straight back into the radiator (That's how most are setup that I can find.) So if it opens early, the coolant will circulate back through the radiator and not allow the engine to warm up. Gotta walk that fine line. 

 

EDIT: I will also be installing an inline tap like fuel systems have for a pressure gauge. I'll stick my quad 0-100psi fuel pressure gauge into it and know the pressures while I dial everything in. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by TFaoro

[jlbayes]

Jesse (fb buddy) and I were talking about one watts valve that was lower pressure but I do not remember the part number and I seem to remember the availability was a bit scarce.

 

All the spacers I have seen put the thermostat on top of the spacer. A friend of mine had a few made up but never got around to getting one to me.

 

Try the aquatrol. I need to add a bypass to mine but space is at a premium with the interstage pipe and waste gate. Then the 16an ports on the new vc......CRAP lol

[TFaoro]

1 hour ago, jlbayes said:

Jesse (fb buddy) and I were talking about one watts valve that was lower pressure but I do not remember the part number and I seem to remember the availability was a bit scarce.

 

All the spacers I have seen put the thermostat on top of the spacer. A friend of mine had a few made up but never got around to getting one to me.

 

Try the aquatrol. I need to add a bypass to mine but space is at a premium with the interstage pipe and waste gate. Then the 16an ports on the new vc......CRAP lol

http://www.engineered-diesel.com/thermostat-spacer-for-coolant-bypass-e-d-billet-black-anodized-24v-cummins-5-9l-6-7l-1998-5-present

No groove for the thermostat to sit in here?? Other kits splice the upper rad hose....

I've done lots of homework, and because that's on the "pressure" side of the pump I don't think it would work well. Basically you wouldn't get bypass unless the thermostat was open. 

 

Picture of the engine bay? I'm still working on placement. Mine may run under the manifold, but we'll see. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by TFaoro

[jlbayes]

Nothing current. I'll get one tonight. Thermostat should be open when bypassing any way....coolant up to temp. ;)

[AH64ID]

So what about an electric ball valve on a WOT switch? Open up a 1/2" or 3/4" line off the rear freeze plug or head port to post thermostat whenever you are WOT. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/HSH-Flo-Motorized-DC9-36V-Normally-Electric/dp/B00WDPZ26M/ref=pd_sim_328_5?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00WDPZ26M&pd_rd_r=Q1R61WM0DJ822H4SJ43X&pd_rd_w=ANuD6&pd_rd_wg=arnCj&psc=1&refRID=Q1R61WM0DJ822H4SJ43X

 

52 minutes ago, jlbayes said:

Nothing current. I'll get one tonight. Thermostat should be open when bypassing any way....coolant up to temp. ;)

Should... but in his example earlier it wouldn't be. 

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by AH64ID

[TFaoro]

2 hours ago, jlbayes said:

Nothing current. I'll get one tonight. Thermostat should be open when bypassing any way....coolant up to temp. ;)

 

1 hour ago, AH64ID said:

So what about an electric ball valve on a WOT switch? Open up a 1/2" or 3/4" line off the rear freeze plug or head port to post thermostat whenever you are WOT. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/HSH-Flo-Motorized-DC9-36V-Normally-Electric/dp/B00WDPZ26M/ref=pd_sim_328_5?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00WDPZ26M&pd_rd_r=Q1R61WM0DJ822H4SJ43X&pd_rd_w=ANuD6&pd_rd_wg=arnCj&psc=1&refRID=Q1R61WM0DJ822H4SJ43X

 

Should... but in his example earlier it wouldn't be. 

 

The thermostat "should" be open, but how much is it open? Wasn't it 209 or something like that when it's fully open? So your engine temp is at 195 with a 190 cracking pressure. A linear"ish" curve leaves it open  ~36%. Idk what kind of normal flow would be coming out or at what pressure it's coming out. I am going to test one of the front ports to see how much pressue is up there.

[AH64ID]

Yes the 190° isn't fully open until 207°. It takes a lot of power to get it to go fully open on the street when empty. I've personally never seen it happen on my truck with over 400 rwhp, and it takes a decent hill towing to happen too. 

 

Get an adapter and put your boost sender in the coolant port :-)

[TFaoro]

56 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

Yes the 190° isn't fully open until 207°. It takes a lot of power to get it to go fully open on the street when empty. I've personally never seen it happen on my truck with over 400 rwhp, and it takes a decent hill towing to happen too. 

16-1800 egts gets it there pretty quick. Talking from experience haha. I'm sure @jlbayes has had the same experience.

56 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

 

Get an adapter and put your boost sender in the coolant port :-)

Close.... I'm going to use the quad fuel pressure sensor! 0-100 should be good!

[jlbayes]

1 hour ago, TFaoro said:

16-1800 egts gets it there pretty quick. Talking from experience haha. I'm sure @jlbayes has had the same experience.

Close.... I'm going to use the quad fuel pressure sensor! 0-100 should be good!

My pyro shuts off at 2k* soooooooo

[TFaoro]

Manifold and the 75 rebuild kit showed up yesterday afternoon. 

I think I'll slap the stock injectors back in it for now so I can do some testing on the coolant system. 

I'm having a really hard time figuring out where to run the hose coming from the back of the block. I guess I'll just hook everything up and see where the open space is. 

 

[Royal Squire]

That manifold sure looks to have a lot of webbing between flanges 

What is the main benefit of stainless 

[crf450ish]

1 hour ago, Royal Squire said:

That manifold sure looks to have a lot of webbing between flanges 

What is the main benefit of stainless 

 

Resistance to cracking. Stainless, depending on its nickel content, holds heat very well. Therefore, resists rapid temp fluctuations which is a main contributor to heat stress cracking. 

@TFaoro, why did you choose the BD manifold?

[TFaoro]

13 hours ago, crf450ish said:

 

Resistance to cracking. Stainless, depending on its nickel content, holds heat very well. Therefore, resists rapid temp fluctuations which is a main contributor to heat stress cracking. 

@TFaoro, why did you choose the BD manifold?

Bingo. They're strong and they don't crack!

Price and geometry are the main reasons. I'd like a steed speed, but they don't come in stock 2nd gen geometry. I do think Stainless Diesel's stainless manifold is better, but I can't justify the cost for the nominal gains. 

 

So I got a lot of work done today!

Drained the coolant, pulled the bolt in freeze plug and got the fittings installed. For anyone looking to do this, do NOT try to put the fittings in while the plug is in the truck. It doesn't work -__-

Anyway, the only fittings I used were a 1/2in short male-male, a 1/2in 90 female-female, and a 1/2in pipe thread to1/2in to hose barb fitting. Then I picked up 6 ft of 1/2in heater hose and put it together. 

 

 

These front fittings are to hook the Quad's pressure gauge into. Once I have the pressure data, I'll purchase a pressure relief valve. 

 

s475 rebuild kit. It's kinda weird how they come with 3 front oil seals and 3 rear seals. The front on my turbo only uses one seal and the rear uses two seals. 

I hope you like pictures! I took enough to make an article. I'll get to it @Mopar1973Man.

 

Take the front nut off and remove the compressor wheel.

 

Screw the nut back on and tap the end of the shaft. They pop out pretty easy as the only thing holding it in is the rear seals. 

 

Pull the shaft out.

 

Remove the big snap ring and pull this front piece out. (Not sure what it's called)

 

Pop the seal out.

 

Remove the oil diverter

 

Remove the thrust bearing

 

Remove the baby snap ring holding in the journal bearing. The bearing will slide out by turning the cartridge over.

 

Remove the other baby snap ring on the back side.

 

Here you can see where it looks like the bearings were spinning in the housing and got scored pretty bad.

 

Thrust bearing scored on the rear.

 

Thrust bearing scored on the front.

 

Dual seals on the exhaust side.

 

AFTER cleaning. All 3 new seals installed.

 

New journal bearings installed.

 

New thrust bearing installed.

 

Thing that pushes against the thrust bearing installed.

 

Oil diverter installed.

 

New O ring on the front piece along with the new seal installed. 

 

Everything pushed back together. Getting it to go the last 1/2 in or so is a PITA. Gotta push hard!

 

Large snap ring. Note it is tapered to hold everything tight, so it only fits one way. 

 

I should note before I put it all together I cleaned it with brake parts cleaner. I also oiled everything heavily! To finish the install, just push the turbine wheel / shaft back in, put the compressor wheel back on, and torque the nut. 

 

This is my oiling method. Cut a little hole in the corner of the bag and dump some oil in it. I was able to get a lot in before it came out the drain. 

 

The turbo is now very tight with slight side-side play and zero in-out play. 

 

I took some airplane stripper to the valve cover I mentioned before. I'm confident this crap will eat anything!

 

Lastly I shined up the injection lines. Not sure why... no one notices them!

 

Hopefully everything will be running tomorrow and I'll have some DATA!!

Edited February 26, 2017 by TFaoro

[Royal Squire]

Are you going to powder coat the valve cover or polish?