Hi all,

So I'm getting ready to do an oil change and I realized that I'm paying almost as much for Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme 5w-40, which is full synthetic(not sure if it's group 3 or 4 though) as I would be for some of the Amsoil products which I know are group 4 base stocks. So I'm looking into switching to Amsoil. I'd like opinions on which version to use and if I should get a bypass filtration kit while I'm at it. I know they have several different diesel oils and I don't know which one I should use. I originally went with the Valvoline PBX because I wanted the 5w-40 and full synth for the cold temps up here. I can definitely hear when the oil gets to the motor which makes me feel a lot better about things. So I don't know if I should use 15w-40 with Amsoil since its synthetic or if I should still use the 5w-40 even though its recomend for newer engines. I'm also wondering how long I should go on an interval. I was always brought up on 3000 miles, but I know you'll all say that's crazy. So I'm looking to extend intervals and save some cash with this stuff being so expensive. I've read a lot about oils especially when deciding to go with the Valvoline PBX in 5w-40, so I know some general stuff. I'm just looking for some specifics and opinions and advice from you all. 

Thanks!

Thread got big in a few days so I am just going to jump in here...

 

 

I run synthetic for 3 main reasons.

 

1) Cold temperature performance. I have seen the published specs and done my own test at -5°F. I would NOT be running non-synthetic 15w-40 below 0°F on more than a very rare occasion. It simply doesn't flow fast enough to do what it needs to at startup.

 

 

2) Hot temperature performance. I tow thru the mountains all summer long and with coolant at 215° and EGT's at 1150° on steep grades the oil is bound to get warm. I see a pressure drop from 55 to 42ish on long pulls. That's hot oil and I want the best performance I can get at those temps, and IMHO that's from synthetic. A caveat is that I monitor oil pressure in the cam journal above the ECM so I will see a bigger pressure change from heat there than someone who is monitoring pressure at the oil filter head.

 

3) Drain interval. These days I only get about 9-12K miles a year on the truck and I want the oil to last a year. Synthetic is what I will run for that time frame. Dino can make the miles but since oil deteriorates sitting and driving I need something with a higher TBN and additive package to make it 12 months. Dino oil's just aren't known for being much more than 6 month oils.

 

 

 

As far as CajFlynn's 1.3 million miles. IIRC he was on the 2nd engine right? Still an amazing feet; however, none of us in here use our trucks like he did and therefor cannot even use his truck as a comparison. It's a very different duty cycle when you hotshot.

 

 

As for filters I run the DBL/ELF 7349. It's got the best rating, 15µ absolute, of any full flow oil filter available for these trucks. All the filters drain back to about 1/2-2/3 full, at least AFIK, even the OEM ones. There is no drainback built into the filter based on how/where it sits on the block. Don't believe me, then check out the bigger forums. There are always threads popping up about filters being 1/2 full at the oil change. Oil pressure still comes up VERY fast and it's not an issue. I see pressure within 2-3 seconds on the far side of the block from the oil pump even when the truck has been sitting a while.

 

I never prefill my filter. Virgin oil is not as clean as you think. Oil fills the filter very fast and pressure builds only negligibly slower with a 100% dry filter. It's not worth my time to prefill thru the outer holes only. Filling the center hole means sending unfiltered oil thru the engine.

 

 

I remember when pre-oilers where big. They went away as advancements in oils were made. Basically the oil clings well enough after shutdown and flows fast enough as startup that it removed the need for the pre-oiling systems.

Edited May 5, 20168 yr by AH64ID

35 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

As far as CajFlynn's 1.3 million miles. IIRC he was on the 2nd engine right?

 

Original engine never been rebuilt.

35 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

Still an amazing feet; however, none of us in here use our trucks like he did and therefor cannot even use his truck as a comparison.

 

True... But he did use petroleum oils and changed at a interval of 20k miles. Chevron Del 15w-40 year round and Fleetgaurd filters. So we might not use the truck the same but to push near 3 times a stock oil change interval and clear 1.3 million miles is very impressive.

35 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

As for filters I run the DBL/ELF 7349. It's got the best rating, 15µ absolute, of any full flow oil filter available for these trucks. All the filters drain back to about 1/2-2/3 full, at least AFIK, even the OEM ones.

 

Back in the early years I never really had them drain back I use to unscrew them and have the filter head dump all over my hand. Now it seem they all tend to drain back below the filter head. @AH64ID you know of any changes in the drain back valve assembly?

 

For others here @AH64ID could you explain in detail the best you can about TBN values... Please.

Edited May 5, 20168 yr by Mopar1973Man

When I bought my truck it had a k&n oil filter on it. I really hate how so many people use k&n stuff. I don't like seeing any engine being taken care of less well than it could be, and I really think all k&n filters are substandard. I know some people like them for the stupid nut on the bottom, but I just don't make filters that tight to begin with and then they aren't hard to get off. Anyway, rant over, the k&n that was on my truck came off super full and overflowed just like Mike said. However, the last Fleetguard stratapore I took off was only about 1/2-2/3 as AH64ID said. 

 

AH64ID, is there any truth to the rumor that the Donaldson filter you mentioned is more restrictive than the Fleetguard Stratapore? I would like the better filtration numbers, but that rumor has me a little scared to use it....

also, almost forgot, what synth oil are you running?

 

Btw thanks for everyone's input, I guess I really need to stop pre filling my filters....

Edited May 5, 20168 yr by leathermaneod

Not to steal AH64ID answer... I still want to hear his answer too.

 

But in generally speaking as a filter gets tighter and tighter filtration the flow becomes restricted. Now I can't speak for the exact filter you asking about but again generally speaking like air filters, fuel filters and oil filters as they tighten down the flow is usually lower in volume.

 

This why K&N makes claims of better performance, because it sacrifices filtration for flow volume so you might flow more volume of air but the filter is very low quality.

Edited May 5, 20168 yr by Mopar1973Man

Just got back from Walmart and wanted to share some things I learned looking at oil. I just might have to give up on Valvoline and go with the rotella t6. It's only $21 something a gallon vs $26 something for the Valvoline at Napa. It also comes in qts and 2.5 gal jugs, which are $53 something, so that's a plus too. I also found something else I didn't realize was an option. Chevron Delo comes in 5w-40 full synth, not just 15w-40 isosyn, and it was only $17 something per gallon. Now I assume it's still group 3 base stock, but it's another option anyway. It would be cool to do a cold flow test comparing the 15w-40 isosyn to 5w-40 synth and see if it's actually anywhere close. 

11 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Original engine never been rebuilt.

 

 

 

The I wonder who I am thinking of that had to replace an engine to break the million mile mark???

 

Oh well. 

 

 

11 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

True... But he did use petroleum oils and changed at a interval of 20k miles. Chevron Del 15w-40 year round and Fleetgaurd filters. So we might not use the truck the same but to push near 3 times a stock oil change interval and clear 1.3 million miles is very impressive.

 

Impressive indeed, but not comparable to over 99% of pickup owners. 

11 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Back in the early years I never really had them drain back I use to unscrew them and have the filter head dump all over my hand. Now it seem they all tend to drain back below the filter head. @AH64ID you know of any changes in the drain back valve assembly?

 

It all depends on the filter application. The ISB application doesn't call for a drainback valve, but many vehicles do. 

11 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

For others here @AH64ID could you explain in detail the best you can about TBN values... Please.

 

TBN is the oils ability to fight the effects of combustion. Even the tightest of rings allows some of the combustion residue down the cylinder walls and into the oil. Combustion creates an acidic enviornment so the TBN (Total Base Number) is what fights that. Generally speaking the higher the TBN the longer the oil can last. 

 

Acidity starts to degrade oil as soon as you start the engine after an oil change. This is the reason for the rating of 6 months on most OCI's. 

11 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Not to steal AH64ID answer... I still want to hear his answer too.

 

But in generally speaking as a filter gets tighter and tighter filtration the flow becomes restricted. Now I can't speak for the exact filter you asking about but again generally speaking like air filters, fuel filters and oil filters as they tighten down the flow is usually lower in volume.

 

This why K&N makes claims of better performance, because it sacrifices filtration for flow volume so you might flow more volume of air but the filter is very low quality.

 

 

This comes up fairly often and I would have figured you would remember the info better Michael. 

 

A higher filtration rating doesn't mean a lower flow rating. Filters are designed to meet certain specs, such as filtration and flow. In fact the Donaldson ELF7349 has better flow and filtration than the OEM and Fleetguard Stratapore filters. 

 

The Donaldson is rated for 15µ at 20 GPM, while the Fleetguards are only rated at 8.72 GPM. The ISB oil pump is rated for 20.5 GPM at 4200 rpms, so the Donaldson will outflow nearly everyones rpm band; however, 8.72 GPM isn't all that much and 2500 rpms could easily exceed the filters rating and flow. 

 

Personally I don't see why anyone would run anything but the Donaldson. 

10 hours ago, AH64ID said:

I would have figured you would remember the info better Michael. 

 

Why? When I got a filter nut right here and he knows it better than I do.

I am seeing the The ELF7349 is replaced by the DBL7349. Same filter or is it different in any big way?

I see it on Donaldson's site listed as the DBL with ELF in parentheses. so I am assuming it is the same.

Edited May 6, 20168 yr by dripley

@AH64ID What's the site you get filters from? I know you've mentioned it before but it's slipping my mind. 

52 minutes ago, dripley said:

I am seeing the The ELF7349 is replaced by the DBL7349. Same filter or is it different in any big way?

I see it on Donaldson's site listed as the DBL with ELF in parentheses. so I am assuming it is the same.

 

The ELF is black and the DBL is blue... that's it. 

 

While many of the filters did improve with the DBL transition the 7349 already had their top of the line full flow media. 

 

35 minutes ago, Buzzinhalfdozen said:

@AH64ID What's the site you get filters from? I know you've mentioned it before but it's slipping my mind. 

 

 

www.filterspro.com

I just bought some oil and fuel filters from Filterspro. The DBL was only $11.50 there where other places were $16 to $22 for the same. I bought 6 DBL's 4 fuel filters and two WS fuel filters. Shipping was $22 for all.

I just got home and the filters I ordered were here. Nothing fancy like go fast parts but will ease some off the shelf purchases.

 

thought it was strange the invoice said to bill APARTSDEPOT.com. Googled it and it came up Filter Products corp, Filterspros.com. Same address too. I did some more digging and still could not find them any cheaper even with free shipping.

 

The red is the price + dividing the shipping cost by 12.

Edited May 6, 20168 yr by dripley

Let the flaming begin.

Scams oil(amsoil) doesn't make anything. (they never have) There is nothing that makes their oil better than the next. Amsoil BUYS there base stock from company's like Ashland. you know, the folks who own/make Valvoline. They have no refining capabilities. They buy base stock and additives from the same place everyone else does, then blend them together and package it up. Price doesn't equate to quality nor does being warped up in the American flag make it better than any other oil. There advertising is a lot of smoke and mirrors. I run dino oil. ps There is no prof your engine will last longer using synthetic over dino oil.

Edited May 7, 20168 yr by Killer223

No there is no proof that the engine will last longer. There is proof that the oil will last longer and preform better in hot and cold environments, which is the reason many people run it over dino oil. This is also the reason OEM's require it in high performance engines. It handles the stress of high power better, whether that's heat, sheer, or tight tolerances. Even the OEM fill from Ram/Cummins is a synthetic. 

 

There isn't a dino oil I can buy that meets year round requirements here. Yes we all know Michael runs 15w-40 in -25° F without a block heater but . I wouldn't recommend that practice, and neither does Cummins. 

 

Oil is like batteries. There are only a few companies that make the batteries, or base stocks, but that in no way means that they are all the same. There are many levels of manufacturing from one manufacturer. You cannot buy the Amsoil base stock and additives in a Valvoline package so it's a mute point that they are made with products from the same company. If the $10 Valvoline was identical to the $20 Amsoil then yes you could do a smoke and mirrors comparison, but it's not. 

 

The most frustrating thing about all of these fluid threads is that they end the same way.. a LOT of misinformation. Call it what it is and if you don't want to run it then don't.. or if you want to run it then run it. But at least put accurate comments out there. 

 

I have ran both in my truck. There is a noticeable difference on the oil pressure gauge with synthetic oil and that's all I can claim. Synthetic builds pressure much faster in the cold and holds pressure longer in the heat (towing up a grade). I don't have any UOA with 15w-40 Valvoline Premium Blue dino as I only ran it for about 8K miles, but I didn't like it in winter and it was never even that cold with it. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 20168 yr by AH64ID

So how accurate are the factory oil pressure gauges? just asking because during cold weather months, I get a 5-7 second  delay before my gauge even registers, in summer its only a few second delay after start up.

Reading and comprehending, There's a difference. Re-read and try again....because I typed it right out there for ya. Sorry you missed it.

 

as for your comment that

Quote

You cannot buy the Amsoil base stock and additives in a Valvoline package

is not entirely correct either. i didn't say you could get the same base stock and additive as amsoil in a valvoline bottle. you have NO way of knowing weather the valvoline or rotella or supertech use the same base stock as amsoil. as for the blending of the additives. no each company is different.

What was stated however was that amsoil buy the base stock from companies such as Ashland. So lets try and practice Reading and comprehending.

Quote

OEM's require it in high performance engines

Yeah high performance. maybe the cummins guys that have upped the HP to over a 1000, but for the average everyday 250-600Hp users, there is NO real benefit, unless as stated before; you are extending drain intervals. i can show you 1000's upon 1000's a semi trucks running dino oil, towing in the mountains and hot desert and even the frigid north of Alaska using dino oil.

my statements are not misinformation,

 

To summarize, Yes synthetics will help you if it's well below 0 and you start and drive your truck often at those temps, yes it flows better in cold climates. and it's better if you are going to leave it in for over 15K miles.

else its no better or worse then the dino oil in the appropriate weight for the climate you live in.

Edited May 8, 20168 yr by Killer223

1 hour ago, 01cummins4ever said:

So how accurate are the factory oil pressure gauges? just asking because during cold weather months, I get a 5-7 second  delay before my gauge even registers, in summer its only a few second delay after start up.

 

Not even close to accurate. Just change the ECT sensor value and you can vary up or down pressure as much as 40 PSI and never actually change oil pressure. The last time I checked mine it was actually about 20-25 PSI higher than the dash gauge.

25 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Not even close to accurate. Just change the ECT sensor value and you can vary up or down pressure as much as 40 PSI and never actually change oil pressure. The last time I checked mine it was actually about 20-25 PSI higher than the dash gauge.

That's what I thought, I guess the only way to truly monitor oil pressure is to install a mechanical gauge

3 minutes ago, 01cummins4ever said:

I guess the only way to truly monitor oil pressure is to install a mechanical gauge

 

Either mechanical or electric either as long as its a stand alone.

 

3 hours ago, Killer223 said:

you have NO way of knowing weather the valvoline or rotella or supertech use the same base stock as amsoil. 

 

Actually you DO... Amsoil is a group IV base stock and Valvoline, Rotella, and Supertech are all group III base stocks. So yes it is VERY obvious if you do the research. 

 

Who should read and comprehend? Try a little education, it may help. 

3 hours ago, Killer223 said:

i can show you 1000's upon 1000's a semi trucks running dino oil, towing in the mountains and hot desert and even the frigid north of Alaska using dino oil.

my statements are not misinformation,

 

 

Really!! Come on, let's at least compare fruit to fruit. Apples to apples is damn near impossible on this forum but fruit to fruit should at least be in the ball park. 

 

Please explain to me how you can compare OTR 900 cubic engines with 40-50qt sumps to the ISB? Look at horsepower:cubic inch, oil capacity:cubic inch, rpm band, and usage. They burn diesel and use the same spec oil but that's about where the servicing commonalities stop. Surely you have to know this, which means your throwing crap at the wall and hoping something will stick. 

 

It's just like trying to compare an OEM 480hp QSB Marine engine to a 325hp ISB in a pickup. The applications are so different that it's not really possible, even thou many of the parts are the same. 

 

As for the 650 hp ISB's those guys aren't ever making 650hp long enough to get the oil heat soaked. Most towing applications use about 375-450 at the most. 450 hp has long been considered the limit of the cooling and oiling system in these trucks. They don't have the ability to keep 650hp cooled and lubed on a sustained basis with OEM sumps and coolers. 

 

There have been some ISB's run high hp on the salt flats for land speed records and they have MASSIVE cooling systems for a reason. So again lets keep it fruit to fruit. 

 

3 hours ago, Killer223 said:

To summarize, Yes synthetics will help you if it's well below 0 and you start and drive your truck often at those temps, yes it flows better in cold climates. and it's better if you are going to leave it in for over 15K miles.

else its no better or worse then the dino oil in the appropriate weight for the climate you live in.

 

They also help with a load applied. There is a visual difference in a stand alone oil pressure gauge when towing with synthetics. The dino doesn't ever get close to the minimum pressure; however, the synthetic holds pressure better. That means it handles the heat better, which is what we want in a 450 hp application that has 359 cubic inches and only 12 quarts of oil. 

 

It's not to say that dino doesn't work for most users but synthetic can do it better at the extremes. 

 

 

Sorry for all the edit's... the quote feature is driving me nuts the last few days. 

Edited May 8, 20168 yr by AH64ID