Hey all,

As the title says I got a death wobble for the first time with this truck today. We were making the first half of the trip from old house to new and my truck was loaded to the brim with our stuff. Right about 1300 lbs worth between the cab and bed. Total weight was between 9 and 10k. I was driving south on I81 just before Syracuse doing about 65mph in 5th gear. I'm assuming I hit a bump, though I can't recall actually seeing one. Anyway it sent me into a violent death wobble. I know what it feels like because my dads old 1st gen used to do it pretty regularly. My sunflower seeds went everywhere, I had stuff falling on me from the back seat where it was stacked to the ceiling lol. It wasn't fun. My wife and mother-in-law, who were following in their car, could see my front wheels wobbling back and forth. I hit the brakes and got it under control and it didn't do it again the whole 225 miles the rest of the way home. It wasn't for lack of bumps either. I81 and the PA Turnpike are not the smoothest roads in that stretch lol. I am really confused as to why this happened. I have a new stock track bar, new 4th gen tie rod/drag link upgrade, new sway bar bushings and links, new lower control arm bushing with caster maxed out, new Bluetop steering gear, new intermediate shaft, steering box brace. Only things left to chance would be ball joints and wheel bearings, but the PO is supposed to have changed them, though I don't know exactly how long ago. The truck was just inspected though and my dad and I have total faith in the guy who did. My family has done business with him for a long time and based on past experience, I'm pretty sure he would have noticed and told me if ball joints or wheel bearings were on the verge. My upper control arm bushings are original as far as I know. Could this just have been a fluke? A one in a million hit a bump just the right way kind of thing? Or is this definitely an indication of a problem? I didn't get an alignment after the tie rod install. We just did it with a tape measure, made sure before and after measurements were the same. If the toe is neutral or pointing out a little instead of in could that have caused/contributed to this? I'm also not running a steering damper because I didn't feel any need for with the new tie rods, could that also be part of the problem? Keep in mind I also have two different tires up front, same size, but different tread, maybe that contributed as well? It doesn't make sense to me because the solid tie rod should not allow this to happen, unless the wheels were wobbling together. Where should I start guys? Any ideas or thoughts? I don't want to throw parts at this. I have a bad habit of thinking I have to fix perceived issues perfectly and instantly and that gets me spending more time and money than I should. I want to take a cool headed approach to this for a change and figure out if this really is a problem before i dig in. Where should I start? Let me know if you need any more details to help figure this out. As always, thanks very much for any and all input :-) 

 

ps- I've also noticed that I think my sway bar is slightly bent and consequently pretty difficult to get installed. Always need a second pair of hands. Not sure if that could be relevant or not. 

Edited September 19, 20168 yr by leathermaneod

Alright so I'm gonna give you my take on this based on what you've put down.

 

- To verify if this was a fluke or not, I'd drive the same stretch of road and see if it happens again. Probably gonna be tough since you were loaded down but if possible, I'd try and drive it and see if it happens. Could've just been a perfect storm or being weighed down, the road layout, your suspension components, but I'd want to double check if possible.

 

- As long as you got an alignment after you 4th gen steering (I'm sure you did) then I can't imagine that being the culprit.

 

- The different tires up front COULD be it. Just because no two tires are created equal and since they're different tread. I'm surprised that you're even running that setup knowing what a stickler you are! What size tires are you running?

 

- I'm not a huge fan of stock track bars, or 3rd gen track bars for that matter, but that could very well be your problem. If you think about what the track bar does, it's more then feasible to think that this could be the culprit.

I am not sure what else you could replace. I have had it happen a few times. When I was in Mobile AL there was one spot coming over a bridge that would make it happen. A very insignificant bump. Then I could run thru a pot hole with very significant bump and she went right on thru. This happened 4 or r times. Then I bought new tires and it stopped. Never did it again until they were about worn out and sure enough it happened a couple of times. I now have new tires again and it has not happened again. It is a big mystery to me after reading what many others have said what fixes the problem. You seem to have done everything I have read about. Drove my truck for aver 300k with out it ever happening.

Condition of the shocks?

You'd be surprised what a damper does for it. Idk if they are necessary, but it definitely keeps the steering gear from being shock loaded as bad. 

How old is the "new" track bar? Not uncommon to see them fail in 10K 

Speaking for me mine have about 12k on them and they are cheap monroes, but they are still keeping the tires on ground like they should. For how long I dont know. The first 2 or 3 times it happened to me it felt more like the left front was bouncing up and down more than both front wheels going back and forth. The 4th or so time it definitely felt like they were going back and forth. Like @leathermaneod it was brutish. Emptied both door pockets. Found things I thought lost in the floor. How about the front springs? Could they be somewhat responsible? New tires  seems to stop mine from the issue.

 

Leather, not trying to hijack you here just adding what has happened to me. My front end is pretty tight but I have not done near what you have. Got to be something going on here.

Wow this is awesome! Thank you all for the great input/suggestions! Let me get started answering all your questions/suggestions. I'll start with @notlimah since he was first to respond. 

1 hour ago, notlimah said:

Alright so I'm gonna give you my take on this based on what you've put down.

 

- To verify if this was a fluke or not, I'd drive the same stretch of road and see if it happens again. Probably gonna be tough since you were loaded down but if possible, I'd try and drive it and see if it happens. Could've just been a perfect storm or being weighed down, the road layout, your suspension components, but I'd want to double check if possible.

Unfortunately, I don't think I'll ever be 225 miles north again, or at least not anytime soon, so driving that same stretch again is not going to happen. However, I have driven it many times in the recent past and never had the experience before. Its a 6 lane highway at the area, so I can't say for sure I was always in that lane at that exact spot, but I would assume I was at some point. I was not really driving any differently today. I was never carrying this much weight before though. 

1 hour ago, notlimah said:

 

- As long as you got an alignment after you 4th gen steering (I'm sure you did) then I can't imagine that being the culprit.

I actually did not get an alignment. I know I know, I should have, but heres the reason why I didn't. My buddy and I took careful measurements before taking anything apart or taking weight off the truck. We then setup the new stuff the same. It always seem to drive pretty good, so I never worried about it. Honestly, I haven't been happy the last couple alignments I got anyway. My wife's CRV had the steering wheel left crooked, and my truck I know they didn't touch the caster bolts. So I was just figuring I had it good enough, maybe I don't. Guess I should get the toe checked. 

1 hour ago, notlimah said:

 

- The different tires up front COULD be it. Just because no two tires are created equal and since they're different tread. I'm surprised that you're even running that setup knowing what a stickler you are! What size tires are you running?

I know, I really need to just break down and buy a set of two matching tires. They are 265/70/17. The story is long, but basically I ended up with a set up 3 Mickey Thompson atz's and one Hankook Dynapro MT. I got them in a trade for my stock 2nd gen wheels with tires when I needed to go to 17" wheels for the steering upgrade. 

1 hour ago, notlimah said:

 

- I'm not a huge fan of stock track bars, or 3rd gen track bars for that matter, but that could very well be your problem. If you think about what the track bar does, it's more then feasible to think that this could be the culprit.

I am not a fan of the 2nd gen track bar at all either, but mine was worn out, and I wasn't about to drop $500 for a 3rd gen bar and conversion bracket at the times even though id really like to improve it. so I went with a lifetime warranty $75 dollar bar and figured its easy enough to change out when its toast. I think I put this new bar on 2k ago or less. Why dont you like the third gen bar? And what solution do you suggest?

 

1 hour ago, dripley said:

I am not sure what else you could replace. I have had it happen a few times. When I was in Mobile AL there was one spot coming over a bridge that would make it happen. A very insignificant bump. Then I could run thru a pot hole with very significant bump and she went right on thru. This happened 4 or r times. Then I bought new tires and it stopped. Never did it again until they were about worn out and sure enough it happened a couple of times. I now have new tires again and it has not happened again. It is a big mystery to me after reading what many others have said what fixes the problem. You seem to have done everything I have read about. Drove my truck for aver 300k with out it ever happening.

I appreciate your input as always @dripley! I thought it was interesting too how it did it on a bump I had not even noticed, but then all the others on the rest of the drive home and no issues. 

 

31 minutes ago, TFaoro said:

Condition of the shocks?

You'd be surprised what a damper does for it. Idk if they are necessary, but it definitely keeps the steering gear from being shock loaded as bad. 

How old is the "new" track bar? Not uncommon to see them fail in 10K 

Thank you for your input @TFaoro! My shocks are Bilstein 5100 and have maybe 8-10k on them. Maybe I need to break down and put the damper on then if it will help protect the gear box. I did not realize that was one of its functions. Any recomendations on what to run? I have to make sure it will fit with the 4th gen tie rod...

New track bar is 2k or less I believe. 

 

21 minutes ago, dripley said:

Speaking for me mine have about 12k on them and they are cheap monroes, but they are still keeping the tires on ground like they should. For how long I dont know. The first 2 or 3 times it happened to me it felt more like the left front was bouncing up and down more than both front wheels going back and forth. The 4th or so time it definitely felt like they were going back and forth. Like @leathermaneod it was brutish. Emptied both door pockets. Found things I thought lost in the floor. How about the front springs? Could they be somewhat responsible? New tires  seems to stop mine from the issue.

 

Leather, not trying to hijack you here just adding what has happened to me. My front end is pretty tight but I have not done near what you have. Got to be something going on here.

I don't consider it hijacking at all! :-) we are all here to learn and we post where it seems to make the most sense, nothing wrong with that :-) I honestly couldn't have even given an opinion on what was happening if they had not told me they could see it. It was so violent and quick, I didn't have a lot of time to analyze what was going on. Maybe the springs could be partly responsible. Yes I assume something is not right, just don't want to go crazy on anything since I already have done so much, and the fact that there are a few easy things that I know could be possible causes, such as the lack of damper, lack of alignment, and two different tires. The different tires are also a relatively new addition, I had a matching set of four until recently. Besides that, I honestly think the truck drives and handles pretty darn well based on what I've heard, wish I had one of you close by to compare with though. Also keep in mind, I've now put almost 12k on this truck, lots of highway driving on these same roads, and this has never happened before, not as much weight before though and the tires were a matching set for most of those runs. So I don't want to get wrapped around the axle and start thinking of this as an emergency. There are lots of little anomalies for me to tighten up before anything else. 

 

Alright now its ya'lls turn to give my your feedback on this giant book of a reply and tell me what you think my order of precedence should be for straightening out all these little things. I also need a recomendation on a steering damper if you think I need one to help protect my steering gear. Only thing is, I hate to make my steering any heavier. Will OEM work with the 4th gen tie rod? I have the bracket for it that bolts to the tie rod...or would I be better off with a matching bilstein 5100? Recomendation for a trac bar solution? not sure if i wanna spend the $$ on that right now, but its something to look into anyway. 

Thanks again guys! looking forward to reading your thoughts on all this!

Maybe I should add the bump on the bridge that first made mine do it was the expansion joint in the bridge running on an angle and not square to the road. If not for the shaking I probably would have never paid it any attention.

18 minutes ago, leathermaneod said:

Alright now its ya'lls turn to give my your feedback on this giant book of a reply and tell me what you think my order of precedence should be for straightening out all these little things. I also need a recomendation on a steering damper if you think I need one to help protect my steering gear. Only thing is, I hate to make my steering any heavier. Will OEM work with the 4th gen tie rod? I have the bracket for it that bolts to the tie rod...or would I be better off with a matching bilstein 5100? Recomendation for a trac bar solution? not sure if i wanna spend the $$ on that right now, but its something to look into anyway. 

Thanks again guys! looking forward to reading your thoughts on all this!

 

I think tires are you're number one priority here. Especially after hearing Dripleys account with older tires getting wobbly and newer ones not.

 

I think an alignment is next priority. I did the same as you and lined up everything really close to stock with the 4th gen steering but still wanted to get an alignment and they said I was pretty far off. Not far enough to where you could notice it driving, or like by inchs (pretty sure it was like 3/8ths off) but if I kept it like that, tire wear would have been pretty evident in as short as a couple weeks.

 

Steering damper is probably next in line IMO. Granted, after your alignment, things might be peachy and you may not need one, which is why I suggested it prior. I'm currently running without the damper and for now, don't see a need on my current setup. Granted I have bigger tires (not sure if that matters in death wobble, might make it worse!) and different track bar, but still, it would help alleviate those bigger side to side steering movements. As far as brands, if I were you I'd have to put a Bilstein on the steering damper simply because of already having the Bilstein shocks and it would drive me nuts having two different brands in there haha.

 

Lastly I'd say look at the track bar. Lastly because it probably isn't going to be the root cause of the wobble, typically it's the Y-style steering linkage which you've fixed already with the 4th gen update, but just because I don't think the stock track bar is any good. I know Mike and I'm sure others have zero issues with them but I think those account are few and far between IMO. I'm 100% biased but I think DOR's track bar is the only way to go here. It's made specifically for the 2nd gen trucks, the bracket is insanely stout as is the bar, and it's adjustable without having to remove it. IIRC I think the heavy duty track bar is under 400 bucks, and despite what most will say about DOR's customer service, I've reached out to them multiple times for help and they've always responded quickly and accurately to help get me through. You may have to wait a bit, but that's the price you pay for a premium product. You can speed things up by waiting to order until its actually in stock, which is what I did and I think I waited a week or so to get it.

The only time that I have had that happen was with a 76 Toyota land cruiser. Everything on it checked out including the alignment and the tech suggested that I run a slight more toe in which cured the problem  for at least 150k miles when I sold it.

I can understand a worn out track bar being a problem. When mine first occurred the track bar was still in good shape. I did have to replace it about 20k to 25k later and believe the wobble contributed to its demise. That shaking has got to be hard on everything. My last occurrence happened on a new one, less than 10k and old tires. There is no movement in my current track bar.

1 hour ago, notlimah said:

 

I think tires are you're number one priority here. Especially after hearing Dripleys account with older tires getting wobbly and newer ones not.

 

I think an alignment is next priority. I did the same as you and lined up everything really close to stock with the 4th gen steering but still wanted to get an alignment and they said I was pretty far off. Not far enough to where you could notice it driving, or like by inchs (pretty sure it was like 3/8ths off) but if I kept it like that, tire wear would have been pretty evident in as short as a couple weeks.

 

Steering damper is probably next in line IMO. Granted, after your alignment, things might be peachy and you may not need one, which is why I suggested it prior. I'm currently running without the damper and for now, don't see a need on my current setup. Granted I have bigger tires (not sure if that matters in death wobble, might make it worse!) and different track bar, but still, it would help alleviate those bigger side to side steering movements. As far as brands, if I were you I'd have to put a Bilstein on the steering damper simply because of already having the Bilstein shocks and it would drive me nuts having two different brands in there haha.

 

Lastly I'd say look at the track bar. Lastly because it probably isn't going to be the root cause of the wobble, typically it's the Y-style steering linkage which you've fixed already with the 4th gen update, but just because I don't think the stock track bar is any good. I know Mike and I'm sure others have zero issues with them but I think those account are few and far between IMO. I'm 100% biased but I think DOR's track bar is the only way to go here. It's made specifically for the 2nd gen trucks, the bracket is insanely stout as is the bar, and it's adjustable without having to remove it. IIRC I think the heavy duty track bar is under 400 bucks, and despite what most will say about DOR's customer service, I've reached out to them multiple times for help and they've always responded quickly and accurately to help get me through. You may have to wait a bit, but that's the price you pay for a premium product. You can speed things up by waiting to order until its actually in stock, which is what I did and I think I waited a week or so to get it.

Thanks for all your input @notlimah! I really do appreciate you taking the time to help me think through this. It's gona be slightly slow progress since we are in the middle of moving now and will be until next week, but I'm going to start working on this stuff little by little and see what happens. Gona have to make a decision on what tires to buy, maybe cooper atps or at3s. I've also heard good things about the hankook dynapro atms so I'll have to see. Then when I get them I'll do the alignment the same time. Then look into a steering damper maybe. I really do not like them though so we'll see about that one lol. As far as the track bar goes, I guess I'm a little leary of the heim joints....why is that supposed to be better than the typical 3rd gen conversion?

I'd  start with the  very basics here!    you just  said  almost  everything has been  fairly recently replaced...     I'd  suspect  something  has  come loose  first!    Somebody  forgot a cotter pin,   or  didn't get it  torqued properly in the first place.     Try to  get a  new stabilizer in there too.

crawl under there  and  have someone  rock the steering  side to side and  you look for  slop,  or   up and down motion  where side-to-side is  the only direction  needed..   about  half a turn  is all you'll need.. engine off  so you may hear clicking too.

Thank you @rancherman! @notlimah Did you ever figure out what steering damper will work with the upgraded tie rods?

Edited September 20, 20168 yr by leathermaneod

I'm pretty sure a 4th gen damper will work but I was going to call CJC off road or poly performance to double check.

After looking at Geno's, it's looking that way to me as well. If you don't mind, let me know if you find out for sure. 

13 hours ago, notlimah said:

I think an alignment is next priority. I did the same as you and lined up everything really close to stock with the 4th gen steering but still wanted to get an alignment and they said I was pretty far off. Not far enough to where you could notice it driving, or like by inchs (pretty sure it was like 3/8ths off) but if I kept it like that, tire wear would have been pretty evident in as short as a couple weeks.

 

  I agree with notlimah.   I use to do alignments at a shop for a few years.  When the specifications call for a setting in tenths of a degree or inches it's impossible to do with a measuring tape and be right on.  You can get it close enough to drive but it still will be way off.      

CJC OFF ROAD

(424) 241-3252

 

Poly Performance

(805) 783-2060

 

Either one of those companies should be more then capable of answering that question.

Thank you! I called CJC and they said it will work. They recommended Carli or Fox for it, but I also asked about a Bilstein 5100 and they said that would be fine too. 

The whole "Death wobble" experience thing. Why is it that people like myself gone nearly 300k miles and never had one problem with it? Stock suspension and the only thing I've got is Rancho shocks with over 100k miles on them. Then all of sudden someone gets "Death Wobble" then always seems like now that person need high dollar shocks (Bilsteins), high dollar suspension upgrade (3rd gen track bar), etc. What I'm trying to figure out what is the magic that has prevented me from ever getting the problem vs. someone like @leathermaneod that now is spending big money on trying to stop the "Death Wobble" problem.

@Mopar1973ManI agree with what you are saying. I never had the problem until after 300k. Still running the oe style front end. All replaced with moog about 4 years ago. The only time mines does it is on old tires. Down to the wear bars old. It happened to me a couple times on the last set up here in VA. Just put a new set on about a month ago and no issues as of yet. It still surprises me the bumps it would hit that would trigger it. Very insignificant bumps.

10 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

The whole "Death wobble" experience thing. Why is it that people like myself gone nearly 300k miles and never had one problem with it? Stock suspension and the only thing I've got is Rancho shocks with over 100k miles on them. Then all of sudden someone gets "Death Wobble" then always seems like now that person need high dollar shocks (Bilsteins), high dollar suspension upgrade (3rd gen track bar), etc. What I'm trying to figure out what is the magic that has prevented me from ever getting the problem vs. someone like @leathermaneod that now is spending big money on trying to stop the "Death Wobble" problem.

 

This could not be more true.

 

People do not understand death wobble.  Death wobble is not the truck bouncing after hitting a pot hole. 

Death wobble is caused by excessive caster.  (Think the front wheels on a shopping cart) 

Death wobble can be caused by #1  a very worn trac bar,  bad hubs, bad ball joints.  Thats it, i've never seen bad tie rods, or steering box cause death wobble.  They can cause a shimmy, bump steer, or wander but not death wobble.