So, before you guys tell me to search if this has been answered before, believe me, I've searched this forum and the other Cummins forums to the point where I can't even think anymore I'm soo tired.

 

I've been having torque converter lockups for a long time on my 2001. I've done every rewire out there, even bought the "sponge" (capacitor) from ATS to compliment their transmission and it still doesn't like being in between 30 and 40, you give it any throttle and it jumps back to 3rd and let off and its back into 4th... I've long suspected the alternator but it always tests clean, I'll get to that in a moment.

 

So this weekend, I decided due to excessive smoke and lag with my Edge disabled it was time for injectors. I went with some DAP +75s and Saturday night dug in and got them installed. Following numerous posts and YouTube videos I got through the process since I've never done it before I was a bit worried but it was actually easy (I'll be honest here, I may have skipped over any sort of priming/cracking open fuel lines  (I didn't know) and started the truck up, but it started right up and is really smooth, quieter than ever). Got everything torqued back down. Test drove the truck for about an hour and wow, big difference. I don't even think I need the Edge anymore other than for gauges.

 

Next day (Sunday) we decide to go for a drive, got on the freeway, tons of power, actually fairly scary to be honest about 3/4 through the loop while heading back towards my house the truck dies and then springs itself back to life, however looking at the gauges, I notice no fuel pressure at all... I kill and restart the truck make it to the next stop light and it does it again. Loss of fuel, truck stutters and then springs back to life aggressively!

 

Luckily, I make it back home and first thing I start checking is power to the relay to the fuel pump. It's got power at start, but even just sitting in my driveway, the power just vanishes from the fuel pump causing the truck to stutter and then fire back to life with 0psi on the lift. WTH?

Checking the relays, the weird massively zip-tied wiring job (the pump was installed at the same time as my trans) and 2 unused wires touching the body... grrr.

 

During all this I found the one connector above the valve cover I was just working with and likely bumped.. the one with the gray lock was unlocked and about 1/4 open... as deep as it goes, still probably fine, made sure that and the other connector there were clean and made sure they were locked. Cleaned the fuel pump relay connector (the stock connector that goes to the original pump) and every other connector within my reach including all 3 PCM connectors with contact cleaner and air.

 

At this point I notice my APPS reading on the Edge all over the place, thinking back to all my issues I'm like, "That damn alternator noise" so. I grab my meter and quickly do an AC test... .019 .5, truck stutters 2.5!, .02... well the 2.5 was a fluke apparently because the truck was stuttering.

 

Pissed off, I remove the alternator.. I had not purchased a fancy one that I had planned on like on my other truck yet. I'm shocked to find a Chrysler branded Bosch alternator when soooo many talk about Denso units on their trucks. I went to O-Really?'s and had them test it, their machine measures PASS with .40 ripple voltage (their threshold is 2.5!?) and I went, hmm I want to try something else. I run to AutoZone instead and theirs tested at .45, a brand new one actually tested .55 so I'm like, their machines are inaccurate anyway because of the motor that drives. I take a new unit and an old unit back to the house. I test the old unit's diodes and they are fine so I put it back on for now. Start the truck, now it's like 10 to 15 degrees cooler outside and the truck has been sitting 2 hours since it's last stutter episode and it's fine, it runs just fine... grr and the APPS is reading a nice flat 0% at idle.. however watching it, it eventually crawls up to 5%.

 

I'm at a loss on what to try next, is it just the APPS, can the APPS freak-outs make the whole computer shut the truck down, including dropping the fuel. Am I looking at a dreaded ECM replacement? Is the heat causing the ECM to be intermittent? At this point, I doubt the alternator...

 

TL;DR; Changed injectors, did valve adjustment, next day... It was hot, drove normal even APPS bounces around a bit as usual. truck died multiple times but only when foot off the pedal and came back to life... each time Airdog dropped out, Relays, Alternator, everything else appear fine, truck cooled down and idles fine, but afraid to drive it now.  

If apps is acting up at idle it's ether not adjusted right or ecm is having issues, at idle apps have no say ecm is in charge. Go through apps voltage setting procedures from timbo.

On 7/25/2021 at 4:11 PM, Dieselfuture said:

Go through apps voltage setting procedures from timbo.

😕 Did that when I installed the sensor...

I went back did a little rereading. My truck is going something very similar. It has cut off while idling and momentarily cut off while under throttle for a split second. It always restarted and never set a code. Then about 2 weeks ago on the way to work it shut and did not restart. I managed to get into a parking lot and that when I noticed the lift pump was working. Played some and swapped the lift pump relay with another and it the pump started running and the trucked fired right off. Took of and made it a half and she shut down again and would not restart, fuel pump dead also. Just played around with it and the pump starting working so tried make back to the house and it shut down again. This time it would not restart and I had to get a tow home. While messing with it at the house I finally noticed the WTS light was not illuminating. I also had a 1694 code. Did a lot head scratching since the electronics is far from my strong suit. I whim I ran the test on the instrument cluster since it is in middle of both ECM and PCM. After that the WTS illuminated. I have no idea why that happened. I took for test spin and sure it shut down again with not WTS light. Ran the cluster test again and the WTS illuminated. The next few days I idled the the truck for several hours, made a couple 10 mile round trips and it flawlessly. Then the day I decide to take it work it shut down after 20 seconds but restarted and the WTS was illuminating. I took off up the road and glitched 3 times under throttle be immediately came back to life.  So quick I never had a chance to lift the throttle. I figured screw I am going to work and it has not done it again since the first 2 or 3 miles last Monday.

 

Now mine never had any code other that the 1694, no APPS codes. So if yours shuts down again with no WTS light run the cluster test and see if it comes back. I have no idea as to why that worked on mine. Coincidence maybe, but if works on yours there is something to it. I wrote this up in a thread titled Dead Truck in this same section. 

2 hours ago, wh82 said:

😕 Did that when I installed the sensor...

On rare occasion I heard that timbo could be bad new, even though it's simple. Not saying it is but maybe. If you had this issues before changing it and now, chances are ecm acting up. Not saying it's bad ether could be ground issues.

Timbos APPS uses mechanical means to set the IVS switches. Then the rest is rheostat that controls throttle. So the rheostat part you can watch with a live data tool and the IVS is a bit tough but you should get a normal idle at 800 RPM if the IVS is working right. If not it could possibly idle higher above 800 RPM if not.

11 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

On rare occasion I heard that timbo could be bad new, even though it's simple. Not saying it is but maybe. If you had this issues before changing it and now, chances are ecm acting up. Not saying it's bad ether could be ground issues.

I am counting on mine not being the ECM. But you never know. I will keep digging for grounds and and checking connectors.

4 hours ago, dripley said:

I am counting on mine not being the ECM. But you never know. I will keep digging for grounds and and checking connectors.

I'm with you, I hope it's not the ECM... Electronics are my thing but it's hard without access to FULL schematics, FULL software code and of course some nice scan tools. I just don't have any of that and am waiting on a friend who has the actual dodge scanners to have time for me. my WTS light always has worked through this... but the ECM cutting the lift pump randomly and then the truck surging back up and running without lift pressure at least kind of tells me the VP44 is strong still.. (not for long at this rate) ****, it drove my truck for at least 3 months when my original pump was dead when I purchased the truck and didn't know it prior to getting gauges back in the day... But now, keep cutting lift pressure and brand new strong injectors... that's when this all started.. 

5 hours ago, dripley said:

I am counting on mine not being the ECM. But you never know. I will keep digging for grounds and and checking connectors.

I just took a look at your thread, very similar problems, completely overlooked it in my panic to get help. :| very odd, heat starts, both have similar issues... maybe the ECMs are melllllting, MELLLLLLTIINGGG... 

Open the connectors near center of fire wall by vacuum  tee. then clean and reconnect a few times to wipe clean.

13 minutes ago, Great work! said:

Open the connectors near center of fire wall by vacuum  tee. then clean and reconnect a few times to wipe clean.

Thanks for the suggestion. That is one thing I noticed right after my injector swap is I had bumped one of those loose. I cleaned both of those with contact cleaner then blew them out with air... still having issues. I'm really curious about dripley's "cluster test" but it looks like that requires a scan tool. I too have seen CCD frequently on my overhead console. :| I really think this truck just wants to be retired :D

Ok but those are normally very solid connectors and should never bump loose. You might take another look at the latches on them. After a certain year you can test the cluster by holding the trip button for along time or hold while turning key on. Can't remember. Also oil pressure sensor is very delicate and maybe intermittent 

Edited July 27, 20213 yr by Great work!
Forgot

so, uh... yeah, I *THINK* found my issue and uh... its embarrassing seeing as how I am one of the people preaching the importance of grounds... one of my hard to reach bolts had come loose and me being in some strange health states lately had to actually force myself to find the end of that specific wire... just drove it hard for a good hour, so far no hiccups, so I'm going to assume I found it. Also, no more APPS jumping (pretty sure the old one was still questionable) but the new Timbo is a solid 0% occasionally hitting 1% but not all over the board... I'm going to do one final calibration now that i fixed the ground as the APPS can only hit 95% full pedal right now.

 

How was that bolt loose and how was one of the ground cables completely disconnected?

ಠಿ_ಠ

2 hours ago, wh82 said:

so, uh... yeah, I *THINK* found my issue and uh... its embarrassing seeing as how I am one of the people preaching the importance of grounds... one of my hard to reach bolts had come loose and me being in some strange health states lately had to actually force myself to find the end of that specific wire... just drove it hard for a good hour, so far no hiccups, so I'm going to assume I found it. Also, no more APPS jumping (pretty sure the old one was still questionable) but the new Timbo is a solid 0% occasionally hitting 1% but not all over the board... I'm going to do one final calibration now that i fixed the ground as the APPS can only hit 95% full pedal right now.

 

How was that bolt loose and how was one of the ground cables completely disconnected?

ಠಿ_ಠ

What bolt did you over look? Inquiring minds would like to know.

 

I did my cluster test by holding the trip button down then turning the key to on. Chec will appear in the odo and it runs a self diagnostic. When I did mine the WTS came on both times after the test was over. I would think your 01 would do the same trick. But you never know. You might try it when your lift pump shuts down and see what happens. You might just try it to see if it works your 01. The 2nd gen 24v's seem to have a lot differences thru there short span.

1 hour ago, dripley said:

What bolt did you over look? Inquiring minds would like to know.

 

I did my cluster test by holding the trip button down then turning the key to on. Chec will appear in the odo and it runs a self diagnostic. When I did mine the WTS came on both times after the test was over. I would think your 01 would do the same trick. But you never know. You might try it when your lift pump shuts down and see what happens. You might just try it to see if it works your 01. The 2nd gen 24v's seem to have a lot differences thru there short span.

So... for those that follow the 'W-T' mod, that one... mines a bit different as I did mine years before his write-up but the same, all those wires that used to merge into the single 8 guage flowing across the top of the alternator were merged into a connection to a bolt that is more direct to the driver battery. That happens to be the one that has the ECM ground and I believe the VP ground and a couple others in it... the loose ring terminal was jittering around from the vibration.

14 hours ago, wh82 said:

so, uh... yeah, I *THINK* found my issue and uh... its embarrassing seeing as how I am one of the people preaching the importance of grounds... one of my hard to reach bolts had come loose and me being in some strange health states lately had to actually force myself to find the end of that specific wire... just drove it hard for a good hour, so far no hiccups, so I'm going to assume I found it. Also, no more APPS jumping (pretty sure the old one was still questionable) but the new Timbo is a solid 0% occasionally hitting 1% but not all over the board... I'm going to do one final calibration now that i fixed the ground as the APPS can only hit 95% full pedal right now.

 

How was that bolt loose and how was one of the ground cables completely disconnected?

ಠಿ_ಠ

At least it was an easy fix and I'm glad you found it before spending a fortune. 

 

I can understand what you have been Through.  The same thing happened to me with an old OMC outboard.  It ran like crap and I couldn't figure it out. Did all sorts maintenance to it.  Then one evening as it was getting dark and I started it up.  The first thing I noticed was the main ground arcing. Tightened it up and it ran great.

 

Later

D

Good job finding it 

2 hours ago, SilverMoose said:

At least it was an easy fix and I'm glad you found it before spending a fortune. 

 

fortunes are relative :D Got a new $250 alternator and a new APPS out of the deal, and all I wanted was injectors cause the truck ran like poo lol.. I guess the alternator can go back, I was looking at an upgraded at some point, but that requires new charge leads as well to support a 270AMP... I'm being told, the truck runs, don't touch it... which is sensible, but yeah

Upgraded alternator not needed. Just need to do the W-T ground wire mod to make things right with AC noise. 

4 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Upgraded alternator not needed. Just need to do the W-T ground wire mod to make things right with AC noise. 

I have lights, big stereo, 2 way radios and when pulling, 2 extra batteries... Really should get myself that 270Amp I've been putting off. 180 doesn't seem like an upgrade but my original Bosch also wasn't putting off any more noise than the replacement so may take the duralast crap back and throw that bosch back in.

 

My ground mod that I did years ago killed the minor AC noise, also did bigger grounds "Big 3" minus the bigger alternator lead.

I've got lights too but don't even draw a full 10A for all of the lights. Look toward energy efficiency. Still in all a massive 270A alternator is going to draw down more horsepower. I'd rather reduce loads than adding bigger alternator.

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I've got lights too but don't even draw a full 10A for all of the lights. Look toward energy efficiency. Still in all a massive 270A alternator is going to draw down more horsepower. I'd rather reduce loads than adding bigger alternator.

This is where I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you... squeezing 270A out of a small case, maybe (bearings and heat), but a properly designed large case alternator is not going to drag that much. It's waaay more efficient especially at smaller loads. I had one on my Dakota, going from 136A to an alternator that puts out up to 180A at idle and 270A max made that truck have way more power! Why? Well, 1) more power available for spark (yeah yeah diesel doesnt have that) 2)more power to run the things like the 2 AC fans (inside/outside) but 3) LESS DRAG at said load. My truck went from the AC blower inside dogging down at stop lights to blowing really strong, could bump my stereo as loud as I wanted (yes I love my music) and could burn the tires. Now that that alternator went back for repair (don't EVER disconnect the battery lead on a PCM controlled alternator, did it by mistake and the PCM full-fielded it frying everything) my replacement from the box store just isn't able to keep that truck running and I'm back to charging the battery every damn night. GRRRR

I don't have near the amount of toys on the diesel that I do on the Dakota, but still a good upgrade (maybe not for my wallet). And on both trucks I have 100% LED everything except headlights on the RAM

Anyway, what I'm saying is that increased load increases the drag, and a bigger alternator designed right will have less drag at the same amount of current. Did you know if everyone turned on everything in their houses we could actually stop water flow through a dam... well, in theory, we pop other components of the grid first... (don't come at me for over-simplification)

 

It's all about the load you actually put on the alternator, not the mere presence of the higher capability alternator, it actually goes the other way.

 

Anyway, what would a mid-life crisis engineer who missed the same damn ground 6 times know? LOL

 

Edited July 29, 20213 yr by wh82